Leolaia, I enjoyed your comments. For years I read constant references in WT publications to the views of individuals such as WE Vine, without knowing anything of the origin of their views. Putting it in context, as you have done, goes a long way to explain why their viewpoints converge with the Witnesses, and why they therefore prefer quoting such writers.
MrMonroe
JoinedPosts by MrMonroe
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32
References for "Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross?", Watchtower 2010, Mar pp.18-20
by pirata ini thought i'd dig up some of the references made in the.
"did jesus really die on a cross?
", watchtower 2010, mar pp.18-20interestingly 2 references are honestly quoted, but the other 2 are misquoted.. what are your thoughts on the credibility of each reference source used and why?
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64
April WT is out. Blood, FDS, moses & crazy stuff...
by bohm inthe april wt is out, get it while you can.
what caught my attention was the first article.
some quotes:.
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MrMonroe
The article helps seal the doctrinal shift that the FDS is synonymous with the GB.
2001: "The Governing Body appoints qualified brothers at the branches to represent it in making appointments of elders and ministerial servants. Care is taken that those acting representatively on behalf of the Governing Body clearly understand and follow the Scriptural guidelines for making such appointments. Hence, it is under the direction of the Governing Body that qualified men are appointed to serve in the congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide." (The Watchtower, January 15, 2001, page 15)
2008: "It is Scriptural for “the faithful and discreet slave” through its Governing Body to appoint men to positions of responsibility, and some men are appointed to exercise authority over other appointed men." (The Watchtower, October 15, 2008, page 23)
2011: "Jesus Christ is the assigned Leader of the congregation. He has delegated some authority to a faithful slave class, made up of faithful spirit-anointed Christians. That slave class, in turn, appoints overseers in the Christian congregation." (The Watchtower, April 15, 2011)
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64
April WT is out. Blood, FDS, moses & crazy stuff...
by bohm inthe april wt is out, get it while you can.
what caught my attention was the first article.
some quotes:.
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MrMonroe
One Watchtower article, so much anger. If this article prompts so much anger outside the organization, is it possible it may also jolt a few sleepyhead Witnesses into examining what they're doing in this creepy, controlling, fact-twisting religion?
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Only the Governing Body is the FDS
by Listener ini hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .
similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.
they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.
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MrMonroe
Has anyone tried discussing the issue of the Governing Body and FDS with Witnesses who call at their door? Do they care?
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45
Only the Governing Body is the FDS
by Listener ini hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .
similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.
they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.
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MrMonroe
@ Awen, very good and thoughtful points.
@ Listener, thanks for the reference; here the governing body of ... who, all "genuine" Christians worldwide??? .... was formed in the late 1800s. Incredible. And, appallingly, that final appeal to Witness to suspend all reasoning powers and suspend all disbelief: The Governing Body is there because it's there, amen. The proof is that it exists, and the fact that it exists is all the proof you need.
Reading those words takes me back to the way I thought in the mid-1980s when I joined. I would read such comments and be quietly awestruck, thinking, shit, this is bigger than I can even imagine. This is so real. I am so fortunate to be part of it. This is deep, but it's true. I accepted it with a certain solemnity, influenced by the guy I "studied" with, who impressed upon me the necessity to accept and believe.
Now I read it and think, you lying fockers. What weak, fraudulent reasoning.
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Only the Governing Body is the FDS
by Listener ini hadn't noticed this before but the governing body is actually saying that they only are the faithful & discreet slave.. watchtower 2009 6/15 para 18 .
similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class.
they make up the governing body of jehovahs witnesses.
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MrMonroe
The concept of the Governing Body representing the FDS is an evolving doctrine.
In 1981 the Watchtower declared:
While alive on earth, Jesus’ faithful apostles were especially responsible for providing spiritual teaching for the “household of God.” Appointed ‘shepherds’ of the “flock,” as well as others, also had similar responsibility. However, the apostle Peter shows that such stewardship of divine truths actually was committed to all the ‘chosen ones.’ Hence, each respective member of the congregation made a contribution to the building up of the body. Thus we see a clear Scriptural basis for saying that all anointed followers of Christ Jesus make up God’s “servant,” with Jesus as its Master. Accordingly, that servant, or “slave,” as a collective body provides spiritual food for all the individuals of this congregation, which make up the household of “domestics.” These individually benefit as recipients of that food. (March 1, 1981, pg 26).
In the past 29 years new light has "evidently" shone on God's organization to indicate that it is not, after all, the entire slave class that feeds the domestics, but a tiny representative body.
Here's the real question, however: to whom was this revealed -- the entire slave class ... or a tiny representative body in Brooklyn? Is this a case of history repeating itself ... the faithful slave class being sacked by the religion's leader, just as it was in 1917?
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Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book
by t33ap80c inwhile it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.
it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").
and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.
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MrMonroe
The WTS has actually claimed that it began to be used by God from the late 19th century, 40 years before 1918.
Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, 1959, page 22: "... In many ways the evidence was beginning to accumulate that, of all the early voices heard, Jehovah had chosen the publication we now call The Watchtower to be used as a channel through which to bring to the world of mankind a revelation of the divine will and, through the words revealed in its columns, to begin a division of the world's population into those who would do the divine will and those who would not. For this reason 1879 was a turning point in the work. This little group, headed by C.T. Russell, had now been tested and had been found fit to undertake the great preliminary campaign leading up to the climax expected in 1914."
The Watchtower, June 1, 1964, page 338: "We have gained all this knowledge through the arrangement Jehovah is pleased to use at the present time, namely, through his anointed spirit-begotten witnesses, comprising the “faithful and discreet slave” class described by Jesus at Matthew 24:45-47. This slave class has used the Watch Tower Society as its legal instrument since 1884, and the chief publication of dissemination of Bible truth since 1879 has been The Watchtower. It is so even to this day."
So the moment CTR began publishing the WT, God loved 'em. Or him, really, since CTR was convinced he was the faithful slave. The "inspection" in 1918 (or 1919 as it was for a while), was a mere formality, apparently.
Interesting to note, as well, the 1931 WT article (June 1, pg 169) that said Rutherford's sacking of the majority of the faithful and discreet slave in 1917 was actually part of the biblical drama of Christ's cleansing of the temple:
"Christ Jesus was placed upon his throne in the autumn season of 1914, and in the third year thereafter, to wit, at the end of 1917, among those consecrated to the Lord there was a class of insubordinate ones who rebelled against the ways of the Lord. Being in line for the kingdom, and becoming offended, insubordinate and rebellious, these were gathered out at the time the judgment of the Lord began at his temple in 1918."
"Offended, insubordinate and rebellious." How dare the faithful slave class challenge the president? Who did they think they were?
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G'day from Oz - My Story
by Gemmel inhi, i've been lurking for a few days reading the site, interesting stuff ;).
i've been out of the org for 23 years, i was 27 i left an agnostic and became an atheist many years ago.
i knew i was going to leave for 7 years before i did but had stayed in because i didn't want to hurt my family, it hadn't occurred to me that they might shun me.
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MrMonroe
Hello from Melbourne. It's a great life on the outside! I quit about three years ago. It changed my life in so many ways.
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Why I Like the "Proclaimers" Book
by t33ap80c inwhile it is true that the "proclaimers" book is not always as open and honest about the society's history as it claims to be, it is open and honest enough to bring into question the society claim to being god's organization.
it's a matter of (1) knowing what to look for, (2) where to find it and then, (3) to be able get the sense of what it means.. take for example the extremely important matter of the second coming of christ.... on the top of page 47 the book truthfully explains how president charles russell came to believe that jesus returned invisibly in 1874 to begin his second coming ("invisible presence").
and then a careful reading of the footnote on page 133 shows that the date of jesus' return was not changed to 1914 until 1943.. it is likely that even if some witnesses notice that fact, they do not get the sense of what it means.
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MrMonroe
Rutherford had confirmed the 1874 date in 1929 in his "Prophecy" book, page 65. See here.
Robert Crompton's "Counting the Days to Armageddon," (1996, pg. 133) spends most of a page discussing how Fred Franz's "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years" made a grand announcement of the "new light", evidently not aware that the change had been introduced some years before 1943. Interestingly, Crompton, who does a detailed study of the rationale behind all the WTS chronology, takes a dim view of the revision by both Rutherford and Franz, who seemed not to understand how Russell's system had worked in the first place.
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JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?
by MrMonroe inmy wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".
we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.
had we been stumbled?
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MrMonroe
@Vanderhoven, sd7,
Quite true. On one of the talk pages at Wikipedia I asked a Witness to explain the basis on which people who have simply quit a religious denomination (JWs), but retained a belief in Christ, were dubbed "apostates" and shunned on the basis of 2 John 9,10 -- a scripture that refers to an individual who "does not remain in the teaching of the Christ". (He mumbled that it was the same thing, because JWs were true Christianity).
The Jerusalem Bible refers in those verses to an individual who "does not keep within the teaching of Christ but goes beyond it."
Isn't that precisely what the question about the FDS, and the subsequent shunning of those who deny it, is doing ... going beyond Christ's teaching?
