Posts by MrMonroe

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

@ Mamalove: Yes, staying with our old friends was quite stressful. "Strained" is probably the best word to describe the weekend. We'd known this couple since the mid-80s and it is clear now the friendship is on very shaky grounds. The wife has twice rung shortly before Memorial night to "encourage" us to attend (on one occasion losing her temper and snapping that we were hypocrites for not attending, because we know it's the truth). They used a lot of emotion, pleading, at one point, "What about the girls?" Luvvy, it was as much for the sake of our girls that we have abandoned this crackpot religion!

@ Wobble: Maybe you're right about it being a question that's never written in the official textbook. I tell you, knowing this guy, who was never a deep student, that question was not asked of his own initiative. It just wasn't him. It was more like a question an overbearing prosecution lawyer would ask a defendant in a trial, and like I say, he actually forgot about it pretty quickly. Somone fed it to him.

The answers many of you are so good. Inevitably, of course, asking them how they know God has an organization, and how they know the "faithful and discreet slave" is the cornerstone of that organization won't produce any sensible answer ("It is, because it is!") and will ultimately only give them the answer they want: you're not under the WTS spell any more. You didn't say, in a loud, clear voice, "Yes!"

Ray Franz discussed the idea so well in chapter 13 of In Search of Christian Freedom: one of the "proof" arguments the WTS uses for the existence of a "God's organization" is that Satan has an organization, so therefore God must have one. Franz's response to that line of thinking: "It says in so many words that what Satan does is a guide for us to know what God does ... in reality, the scriptures show that Satan most often uses methods, not typical of, but directly opposite to God's." (p.459).

He also turns on its head the old WT claim that if God was part of a trinity that he would have plainly stated this fact in the Bible. Franz reasoned: If it was so critical that people appreciate God had an organization on earth to which people had to be a member in order to survive Armageddon, wouldn't he have plainly stated it? (p. 453).

22

How Would You Respond to this PM?

by AudeSapere in

jw
friends

today i received the following pm from a fairly new poster (last 2 weeks and only 10 posts):.

audesapere, .

something in one of your posts tells me i might know you.

MrMonroe

It's a PM that would ring alarm bells in my mind. Anyone asking an anon user to identify themselves would, as a matter of good faith, fully identify themself in their request.

I was thinking today how much of a shame it is, and condemnation of the shitty religion we were in, that so many of us feel compelled to hide behind user names out of fear of the consequences. I have just contacted another JWN poster here who says he's from Melbourne, where I live. It's just crazy that we each tiptoe towards revealing ourselves.

Someone made the simple point today on another thread: "What a horrible religion." Those four words are so powerful and I wish with all my heart that I'd heard them before I committed myself to them back in '85. It is just so twisted and perverted that a person can become part of a religion because of a sincere desire to learn more about the Bible (or simply be born into it) and then endure such pain to leave.

Some months ago on one of the talk pages at Wikipedia, where I hang out a lot, a devout (and truly spellbound) Witness trotted out the hoary old line about it being easy to leave the religion. "Just go," he said, and that was a message I heard many years ago when I first started witnessing, chatting to an elder who was genuinely bewildered at why "apostates" were so opposed to the religion. "No one's forcing them to stay," he said. "They were free to join and they're free to leave. No one's forcing them to stay."

He was a decent guy and I'm sure he truly believed it. I hope that over the years he has opened his eyes a bit and realised how false that statement is. Perhaps it's only those who want to leave who see how false it is and how paranoid and fearful it makes those who bridle against the control. But then again, his family is all in the "club" and maybe, just maybe, he feels as trapped as we know many other desperately unhappy Witnesses are.

"What a horrible religion." That's a slogan.

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

The original posting has corrupted for users on IE. Here 'tis again:

My wife and I had stopped going to meetings in April; in December of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the Witness couple who had "brought me into the truth". We had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until Sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about WHY we had left. Had we been stumbled? It's not about the people, you know! Well, we said, that's our private decision. We left, we're not going back, but we'd rather not discuss our reasons.

It was a session I described in my diary as the Breakfast Grill. They told me there was a Watchtower that very day was addressed at our very situation, about how Jesus cares for his lost sheep, and they assured me that when we returned to Melbourne, we would surely have contact from our old congregation. Stirred up by the timely article, those loving, concerned brothers would definitiely inquire after our spiritual wellbeing. If he was a gambling man, he'd put money on it. Rubbish, I told them. They'll attend the Watchtower study, answer the questions and give us no thought at all. It's a Watchtower study, just words on a page. That's the way it is. I didn't want them to visit in any case: we'd made a definite decision to leave, based on very firm grounds.

And so on they went, hour after hour, tears in their eyes as they grieved for our loss. OUR loss! But then there was curious question.

He looked my wife in the eye and asked her,

"Do you believe Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave as his organizaiton on earth?"

My wife paused. How the hell do you answer that question? The answer, of course, was , No, absolutely not. I jumped in and deflected and quickly the question was forgotten.

But I've never forgotten that question. Why did he ask it? It's a loaded question, a bit like a Witness being asked by a householder, "Do you accept the divinity of Christ, yes or no?" Well, there's a trap, because it depends on your definition.

His question assumes several things:

1. God has an organization (which is an interpretation peculiar to the Witnesses).

2. If he does have one, it is the Watch Tower Society. (Please God, no!)

3. The faithful and discreet slave is more than just a figure in a parable: it is a "class" of Christians as Russell decided. (Again, among all religions, only the Witnesses have decided that parabolic figure represents a group of Christians who would be represented in the last days).

4. If the Watch Tower Society is indeed God's organization, the faithful and discreet slave "class" actually plays a role. (There is no evidence that those 11,200 self-professed anointed scattered throughout the globe play any role in the formation of doctrine or direction of the beliefs or activities of Witnesses. As Ray Franz pointed out, they mean nothing, zilch, to the Governing Body).

So why did he ask it? Did someone suggest it to him? Reading threads on this forum, and listening to the recordings at the Death or Obedience blog, it seems this is a question commonly asked at judicial committees. I searched in the "Shepherd the Flock of God" book for a suggestion that elders ask the question, and couldn't find it. Is there some unwritten convention that elders ask that question of those they suspect are apostates, searching for the evidence that would allow them to disfellowship them? Because answering in the negative is an immediate confession that one is no longer a believer, no longer under the spell of the Watch Tower Society.

Have you ever been asked that question? Do elders share it among themselves as the $64,000 question? Why did he ask it?

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

Happy to re-send, but I'll have to wait till I'm back on my home computer!

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

That's settled then. Is this a common bug?

Anyway, I'll return to the Real Dolls thread. You learn something new every day ...

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

That's weird. I'm at work now using IE and my question (the first post in this thread, posted at home on Firefox) appears to have morphed into a reply by 3Mozzies. The second half of the post has disappeared.

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

@Broken Promises: Mr Monroe is not 3Mozzies. MrMonroe messaged 3Mozzies. 3Mozzies indicated he had received MrMonroe's PM and would respond later.

4

interesting item on the 2010CDlibrary

by Aussie Oz in

i just installed, and as i hoped, it didn't overwrite the 2008 version i had.. i did notice that the first page up gives me not only the text for the day but also the weeks theocratic ministry school and service meeting parts.. just in case anyone wanted to know.... oz.

.

MrMonroe

Did you download the library or install the disc? I still can't find the 2010 library online.

52

Assembly Day Points by a Member of the Governing Body

by Reopened Mind in

jw
friends

a jw friend of mine sent me this email today:.

assembly day points...... .

brother morris, (member of the governing body).

MrMonroe

So some diligent Witnesses' assembly day notes have gone viral? Extraordinary. They'll be turning up as an experience at an assembly day next year, mark my words!

50

JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe in

my wife and i had stopped going to meetings in april; in december of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the witness couple who had "brought me into the truth".

we had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about why we had left.

had we been stumbled?

MrMonroe

My wife and I had stopped going to meetings in April; in December of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the Witness couple who had "brought me into the truth". We had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until Sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about WHY we had left. Had we been stumbled? It's not about the people, you know! Well, we said, that's our private decision. We left, we're not going back, but we'd rather not discuss our reasons.

It was a session I described in my diary as the Breakfast Grill. They told me there was a Watchtower that very day was addressed at our very situation, about how Jesus cares for his lost sheep, and they assured me that when we returned to Melbourne, we would surely have contact from our old congregation. Stirred up by the timely article, those loving, concerned brothers would definitiely inquire after our spiritual wellbeing. If he was a gambling man, he'd put money on it. Rubbish, I told them. They'll attend the Watchtower study, answer the questions and give us no thought at all. It's a Watchtower study, just words on a page. That's the way it is. I didn't want them to visit in any case: we'd made a definite decision to leave, based on very firm grounds.

And so on they went, hour after hour, tears in their eyes as they grieved for our loss. OUR loss! But then there was curious question.

He looked my wife in the eye and asked her,

"Do you believe Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave as his organisation on earth?”

My wife paused. How the hell do you answer that question? The answer, of course, was , No, absolutely not. I jumped in and deflected and quickly the question was forgotten.

But I've never forgotten that question. Why did he ask it? It's a loaded question, a bit like a Witness being asked by a householder, "Do you accept the divinity of Christ, yes or no?" Well, there's a trap, because it depends on your definition.

His question assumes several things:

1. God has an organization (which is an interpretation peculiar to the Witnesses).

2. If he does have one, it is the Watch Tower Society. (Please God, no!)

3. The faithful and discreet slave is more than just a figure in a parable: it is a "class" of Christians as Russell decided. (Again, among all religions, only the Witnesses have decided that parabolic figure represents a group of Christians who would be represented in the last days).

4. If the Watch Tower Society is indeed God's organization, the faithful and discreet slave "class" actually plays a role. (There is no evidence that those 11,200 self-professed anointed scattered throughout the globe play any role in the formation of doctrine or direction of the beliefs or activities of Witnesses. As Ray Franz pointed out, they mean nothing, zilch, to the Governing Body).

So why did he ask it? Did someone suggest it to him? Reading threads on this forum, and listening to the recordings at the Death or Obedience blog, it seems this is a question commonly asked at judicial committees. I searched in the "Shepherd the Flock of God" book for a suggestion that elders ask the question, and couldn't find it. Is there some unwritten convention that elders ask that question of those they suspect are apostates, searching for the evidence that would allow them to disfellowship them? Because answering in the negative is an immediate confession that one is no longer a believer, no longer under the spell of the Watch Tower Society.

Have you ever been asked that question? Do elders share it among themselves as the $64,000 question? Why did he ask it?