sTann, w/ all due respect, i don't listen to the elders on who to associate w/ write too, etc., and i'm not about to listen to you on that either.
avishai
JoinedPosts by avishai
-
343
Defence of watchtower society Links
by reniaa ini thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
-
-
-
343
Defence of watchtower society Links
by reniaa ini thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
-
-
avishai
And here's the resolution all JW's @ the 1963 convention took...
The Resolution presented at "Everlasting Good News" assemblies 1963
WE JEHOVAH'S witnesses, met together in [City, State, Country], in one of the "Everlasting Good News" assemblies being held in a continuous chain around the whole world this year of 1963, do this day declare and resolve as follows:
2 THAT the one living and true God, the Creator of heaven and earth, whose name is Jehovah, is the only God whom we fear and glorify. Him alone will we worship; for him only will we be witnesses in the universal contest now in progress over the question, Who is the Everlasting, All-wise, All-powerful God? and him alone will we urge all peoples everywhere, of whatever race, nationality, tribe, color and language, to worship as the true God without equal;
3 THAT the Holy Bible, written under inspiration originally in Hebrew, Aramaic and ancient Greek, is his written Word. It is the channel of the one revealed religion that is the absolute truth and that is the unerring guide to pure worship acceptable to God;
4 THAT God the Creator, to whom his own written Word gives the name Jehovah thousands of times, is the King of Eternity and the Eternal Sovereign of the universe, and to him we owe our supreme allegiance and unqualified obedience. Only by his permission and tolerance have men set up political governments for what is understood to be the public good. His permission for this was not to continue forever or even indefinitely, but was to be brought to an end by the establishment of the kingdom of his beloved Son, the Messiah or Anointed One, the Christ, who was named Jesus when on earth as a perfect man. In the year 1914 the combination of events began on earth that he said would be a visible sign to us that Jehovah God had taken his sovereign power in that year and had set up the kingdom of his Son Jesus Christ for the government of this earth. According to the published information from the Holy Bible, the time then came for all the political nations to yield their sovereignty in the earth peaceably over to the heavenly kingdom of God's enthroned Son Jesus Christ. World history shows that, instead, more than a score of nations, led by Christendom, engaged in a global war for world domination. Because of this course the nations entered into the "time of the end" foretold in the Holy Bible, which will reach a conclusion in their violent destruction;
5 THAT, in order to prevent the destruction of the nations by their own means in war, the nations further refused the surrender of their sovereignty to God's Messianic kingdom by setting up a society of nations, which, since 1945, has taken the form and the name of the United Nations, with international headquarters at New York city. This international organization stands for world sovereignty by political men. For years men without faith in God's kingdom have endeavored to get all people to worship this international image of human political sovereignty as the best hope for earthly peace and security, in fact, the last hope for humanity. To date 111 nations have given worship to this political image by becoming members of it. However, we, as witnesses of the Sovereign God Jehovah, will continue refusing to engage in such idolatrous worship, for we see, under angelic enlightenment, that God has smitten such idolaters with a malignant ulcer, symbolically speaking, that will spell death to them as spiritually diseased image worshipers who worship a man-made political creation rather than the Creator of heaven and earth;
6 THAT radical governments have been formed and taken over the control of powerful nations and they rage like the restless sea against the older, traditional forms of human government that have long ruled the earth. The ideal life for mankind will not come by means of such radical, revolutionary governments, which have already proved themselves unsatisfactory and incapable. God the Creator judicially pronounces such radical political institutions to be dead, death-dealing, as dead as a dead man's shed blood that has congealed. Everyone trying to live in that element must die. We, as witnesses of God the Source of all life, will maintain our Christian steadfastness and have no part in such radical movements, but will hold fast to our Christian neutrality toward all radical and other types of human government over earth;
7 THAT the waters that the people have drunk from the rivers and fountains of human philosophies, political theorists, social organizers, economic advisers and advocates of religious traditions have resulted in no real life-giving refreshment to the drinkers. Such waters have even led the drinkers to violate the Creator's law concerning the sacredness of blood and to engage in religious persecutions and in shedding the blood of even the holy ones and prophets of Jehovah God; for which reason he has judicially decided that they must suffer the full penalty for shedding blood, doing so either as individuals or as a community. We, however, will avoid this divine judicial decision by drinking only of Jehovah as the Fountain of living water, doing so by means of his Holy Word;
8 THAT we will continue to look to Him as the great Sun from whom comes our enlightenment, guidance and healing. We will glorify him and not join idolatrous men in looking to bright-shining ones of mankind as the source of mental and spiritual enlightenment and of worldly prosperity. In this way we save ourselves from taking part with disappointed men in blaspheming God the Creator because the symbolic "sun" that they idolized and looked to for enlightenment and a brighter future has scorched them with unbearably hot world conditions rather than with a healing of the state of mankind;
9 THAT we accept the Bible's proof that Satan the Devil is the "ruler of the demons" and also the "ruler of this world," from whom our Leader Jesus Christ refused to accept any throne of rulership. But ever since the days of Nimrod, king of Babylon, the political system of this world has accepted its throne of political rulership from the satanic "ruler of this world," and to this ruler the worldly political system has paid his fixed price for the throne, rendering him worship and service. Since the decisive year of 1914 the political system of human government has refused to vacate this throne and cease rendering service to the "ruler of this world." For this reason the darkness of God's disfavor has settled down on the kingdom of this worldly political system, and there is no political light to show human rulers the way out of the increasing "anguish of nations." With no repentance they persist in their works for self-salvation, and blaspheme God for paining them by having His witnesses showing that their doomed condition is beyond healing through human remedies;
10 THAT Nimrod in rebellion against Jehovah God founded his capital city Babylon on the Euphrates River in the Middle East, and by its waters this imperial city protected itself and carried on selfish commerce with the peoples. Ancient Babylon has now a modern counterpart that enriches and protects itself by sitting oppressively upon symbolic waters, the peoples, and even holding a religious kingdom over the political kings of this earth. Now the time has come for God to dry up these wealth-bringing protective "waters" and bring about the fall and destruction of Babylon's modern counterpart. As for her political companions, these are marching to the "war of the great day of God the Almighty." Under propaganda and programs inspired by demons and voiced by political systems serving the "ruler of this world," the kings of the earth and their armies are being led, not to the Euphrates River, but to the battlefield with the Hebrew name Har-Magedon (or, Armageddon). We, who are Jehovah's witnesses, will not obstruct them in their military preparations, and yet we will not march with them to Har-Magedon, for we refuse to fight against God Almighty and his kingdom by Jesus the Messiah;
11 THAT, although at present we are obliged to be in this world, we will not breathe in the spirit of this world, for it is not the spirit of God but is the spirit of the devilish "ruler of this world." Led by the spirit of its unseen ruler, the world of mankind has for thousands of years cultivated the works of the fallen, degraded flesh. Now the world is reaping the results of breathing in the spirit of Satan the Devil and cultivating the works of their flesh, which is at enmity with God. Babylon's modern religious counterpart has not cultivated in the people the spirit of God, that they might reap the fruitage of God's spirit to the attainment of eternal life in His new order of things. The world therefore faces an earthquake of world trouble the like of which it has never known, and all its political institutions and its modern religious Babylon will be shaken to bits, even human institutions as imposing and stable as mountains or isolated like islands disappearing;
12 THAT, therefore, we have immediately ahead of us the most momentous period in the history of mankind; the hour of the execution of God's righteous judgment is about to strike, and we are in the day of decision. Whereas we see all the nations of this doomed world marching under superhuman demon influence, it is our resolution to remain immovable on the side of the established Messianic kingdom of Jehovah God, ever praying that he will give us more and more of his spirit. And as we endeavor to cultivate the fruitage of the spirit of God and carry on His pure and undefiled worship, we will keep on the full suit of armor of God and continue fighting, not against blood and flesh, but against the "wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places" until the satanic "ruler of this world" and his demons are abyssed for the thousand years of Christ's reign. We thank Jehovah God for the ministry of his holy angels under Jesus Christ in our behalf. With their help and with the help of his holy spirit and Word we will continue to declare to all peoples without partiality the "everlasting good news" concerning God's Messianic kingdom and concerning his judgments, which are like plagues to his enemies but which will be executed for the liberation of all persons who desire to worship God the Creator acceptably with spirit and with truth.
[Emphasis Added]
-
343
Defence of watchtower society Links
by reniaa ini thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
-
-
avishai
As for child abuse well I did do some personal research on this and found that newspapers/lawyers made a particular thing of targeting churches for big money payouts thats a fact and Jws are among many targeted
These are two articles the newspapers pretty much got right. I know, the victim is my brother. After being TOLD by the elders who never went to the cops, this guy went on to moles at least 50 ADMITTED victims. He was later convicted, no help from the elders though.
Suit Targets Jehovahs Witnesses
Benton complaint about sex abuse and church policy is said to be the first of hundreds across the U.S.
The setup is such that the elders are the voice of the Watchtower, and the Watchtower is the voice of Christ. Theyre taught that if you take it to the elders, you get the best forum already that you could ever be in. Kimberlee Norris, Forth Worth Attorney
10-6-02
BY JENNUFER ROUSE
MID-VALLEY SUNDAY
A man is suing the and North Corvallis Jehovah's Witness congregations and the religion's 'national headquarters for $3 million. The lawsuit accuses church leaders of ignoring the sexual abuse he suffered as a Child.
The suit is the first of hundreds of mass filings against Jehovah's Witnesses planned by the law firm that filed it. The complaint names the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York and numerous other defendants. It alleges that when Tyler C. Davidow, now in his early 20s, was 4 or 5, a fellow Jehovah's Witness member abused him. His mother, Cathy Davidow, contends that when she went to the elders of the church, they did nothing to stop the abuse.
Tyler and Cathy Davidow both declined to be interviewed. In this report, Mid-Valley Sunday is not identifying the defendant also named in the suit because he could not be located to respond to the allegations.
Jim Rifle, an elder from the congregation said ho couldn't comment on the situation because he didn't know anything about it and hadn't been served with court papers yet. "We'll address the matter when we are Informed of it through the proper channels," Riffe said.
Steve Cuda, an elder from the congregation, also had not heard of the complaint and could not comment. It usually takes some time before are served with notice of civil complaints. Officials at the national headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses in , didn't know of the suit either.
However, J.R. Brown, a national spokesman for the organization, said that while Jehovah's Witnesses deal strictly with child abuse within the congregation, it isn't the church's job to report abuse. "Nothing prevents them from calling the authorities," Brown said. "They don't have to call us first. These things operate separately. If the offender is part of the congregation, we will deal with it in a church setting.
But if they are also reported to the authorities, we will not try to shield them.
A copy of the complaint was sent to the newspaper by attorney James G. Nelson. According to the lawsuit, Cathy Davidow owned a store called Blackbeard's Market 145 N.W. ,Corvallis , in the 1980s. While she worked at the market, she often brought with her and let rim play in a storage area, Mother and child were members of the congregation in 1989, Cathy Davidow employed a woman who, was a member of the congregation. According to the lawsuit, this woman often brought her teenage son with her to work, and, according to he lawsuit, he often stayed with in the storage area while he women worked.
In 1985, according to the complaint told his mother that the teenager had been sexually abusing him for a year, and she went to the elders of her church.
Kimberlee Norris, the attorney handling the case, said that Jehovah's Witnesses encourage church members to take complaints to he church leaders.
The control issue is so strong in Jehovah's Witness corn congregation," Norris said. The setup is such that the elders are the voice of the Watchtower (the name of the Jehovah's Witness headquarters), and the Watchtower is the voice of Christ. Theyre taught that if you take it to the elders, you get the best forum already that could ever be in.
According to the suit, when Davidow went to the elders of the church, they told her they would research the problem and take care of it and that she shouldn't tell anyone else aboutit.
Oregon law requires members of the clergy, like teachersand social workers, to report any allegation of child abuse to disfellowshipping the police. However, another law (ORS 40.260) provides an exception if it is part of a church's religious practice to keep confidential communication secret.
Brown, the national spokesman, said that Jehovah's Witness elders do report sex abuse in states where there are mandatory reporting laws.
If it is a state that requires clergy to report, we of course would view that as taking precedence over ecclesiastical privilege," he said.
Time passed, and Davidow didn't see anything being done, either to help her son of to discipline the offender. She continued to ask the elders what they were doing about the issue, the lawsuit says. Eventually, she contacted the elders at the congregation, where the alleged abuser and his mother were members.
The elders of (Corvallis congregation) instructed her to stop talking about it, we've got it handled," the lawsuit states.
In 1993, Davidow says she reported the matter to the Corvallis police .
"For her to come to that point, as a Jehovahs Witness, you have to come to the point where youre willing to be shunned," Norris said.
Jehovahs Witnesses teach that church members who rebel against the teachings of the church should be disciplined, for their own good, so that, they might repent and return to fellowship.
That often takes the form of disfellowshipping all members of the congregation, even other family members, breaking all ties with the offender. An article on the Jehovahs Witnesses Web site mentions that even saying hello to a disfellowshipped person might be wrong.
When Cathy Davidow finally reported her sons abuse to the police, she was disfellowshipped. was not disfellowshipped but chose to leave the faith on his own.
The basis of the suit against the Jehovahs Witnesses is that the elders were negligent in failing to deal with the reports of sexual abuse. And according to Norris, it wasnt a simple oversight on the parts of elders in . She believes that child abuse in the Jehovahs Witness church is widespread because of the churchs policies.
Its not that they intend for children to be molested by the dozens, Norris said. Its that their crummy policy allows this to happen. Theyre had notice upon notice that it is, in fact, occurring. At some point, does it rise to the level of gross negligence?
Thats why the suit doesnt just name the two local congregations, but the churchs headquarters and subsidiaries in and . And Davidows suit is not the only one.
Norris and a team of other attorneys are filing suits alleging negligence against the Jehovahs Witnesses organization in all 50 states. Davidows is the first because of the impending statute of limitations a civil suit for child sexual abuse cant be filed in Oregon after the victims reaches the age of 24.
Norris said the mass filings are akin to a class action lawsuit.
Norris first began working on the issue last May, when a woman approached her with a story similar to Davidows.
Her initial allegations were so outrageous as to cause me concern as to if they were even truth, she said. After I began to investigate her situation and did research on other like situations, it became clear that what she experienced, and what others experienced, are systemic in the Jehovahs Witnesses organization.
Since then, Norris said shes heard almost the same story from 200-300 different people.
There are two specific Jehovahs Witnesses policies that Norris contends foster sexual abuse. One policy, she says, tells church members to report problems involving other believers to church leaders instead of police. The other is that the church requires two eye witnesses to an incident before the accused person can be punished.
Brown, the Witness spokesman, said that while the church does require two eye witnesses or other compelling evidence before meting out any church discipline, thats beside church procedures. He said the church does not forbid members from reporting crimes to the police.
Were not trying to deal with the penalty of the law, he said. Thats a separate thing from our point of view. Yes, an abuser should pay the penalty, even if he has to sit in jail for 10 -15 years.
Norris said that despite what church leaders say about encouraging church members to go to they police if they wish to, that rarely, if ever, happens among Jehovahs Witnesses.
Norris said that while Tyler Davidow does hope to reclaim damages for the emotional pain his unacknowledged child abuse caused him, he and the other people she represents have a larger goal in mind.
"This is really difficult for him, but he wants to see policy change," she said.
We want to change Watchtower Society policy that, in my opinion, fosters and encourages child abuse.
Abuse lawsuit brings forth new allegations
By Jennifer Rouse
Mid-Valley SundayOn the heels of a lawsuit filed against mid-valley Jehovah's Witnesses congregations in September, another man has come forward claiming his child was sexually abused by the same person.
In a lawsuit filed in September, Tyler C. Davidow, 24, asked for $3 million in damages in the suit, filed in Benton County Circuit Court. The suit is one of a series of mass filings against the Jehovah's Witnesses that a Texas law firm is planning.
Davidow claims a man named Troy Christian McKenzie, now 34, abused him in 1984. According to the suit, Davidow, McKenzie, and both boys' mothers were all Jehovah's Witnesses.
The Davidow suit claims that when Cathy Davidow learned of her son's abuse in 1985, she went to the elders of her church and they told her not to make a report to the police so they could deal with it internally. Elders never addressed the matter, the suit claims. Tyler and Cathy Davidow both declined to be interviewed.
A lawyer for the Watchtower Society said elders at the Albany and Corvallis Jehovah's Witnesses congregations had no idea children in their flock were being abused.
"The elders did not know about this and were not responsible for this," said Philip Brumley, general counsel for the Watchtower Society, which is the Jehovah's Witnesses headquarters in New York.
After Davidow's lawsuit was filed, John Muir, a former member of the Corvallis congregation, came forward, claiming that McKenzie also abused his son, Eli.
When Cathy Davidow reported her son's abuse to the elders, other parents were not informed of the allegations against McKenzie, Muir said. But Muir heard about the allegations from another church member. He also heard that Davidow was not the only boy who had been abused -- and that Muir's son was one of the victims.
Shocked, Muir went to the elders and asked them to tell him what they knew.
"When I asked for information I was told I didn't need to know. It would serve no purpose," he said.
Muir and his wife then began years of wondering how to deal with the situation.
"You tell me, how do you ask a 4-year-old what was done to him?" Muir said. "Does he even remember? Maybe he has buried it so far in his mind that he doesn't remember anything."
After living with the uncertainty for years, Muir finally talked about it with his son. Eli told his father that he had been abused but did not remember the incident very clearly.
Muir has contacted the Texas law firm handling the case against the Jehovah's Witnesses church, but at this point has not filed a suit of his own.
Eli is now 25, and Oregon law says that civil lawsuits for childhood abuse must be filed before the victim's 25th birthday. But John and Eli Muir decided to speak out anyway, to encourage others who may have been abused. Even if there is no legal action taken in their case, Muir thinks that what was done was wrong.
"That boy was allowed to continue to roam about the congregation," he said. "Other families had no knowledge that they had a child molester in their midst."
Muir is no longer a Jehovah's Witness. He said he was "disfellowshipped" from the church several years after the abuse incident, for an unrelated matter.
He knows the elders did not intend for children to be abused. But he thinks church policy failed miserably when it came to dealing with abuse.
"I would say in most cases they do a good job," he said. "But in this case not only did they do a bad job, but they themselves caused harm to the children. They left the children exposed to future harm."
Brumley, the Watchtower Society lawyer, said that the elders aren't to blame for acts committed by another person. He says McKenzie wasn't even an official congregation member, though he may have attended some meetings.
"To our knowledge, he was never a baptized Witness," Brumley said.
Kimberlee Norris, one of the Texas lawyers filing cases against Jehovah's Witnesses, contends that church policies create an opportunity for abuse to occur. One policy, she says, tells church members to report problems involving other believers to church leaders instead of police. Another requires two eyewitnesses to an incident before the accused person can be punished.
She claims that McKenzie abused Davidow while he was a teenager living in Oregon, didn't face any consequences for it, and went on to abuse again.
Norris provided court records showing McKenzie served time in Alaska for sexual abuse.
McKenzie was convicted of sexually abusing a young boy in Alaska in 1994. He was sentenced to three years in prison, but two and a half years of that was suspended. He was considered a good candidate for sex offender treatment, and was allowed to move to Oregon with the condition that he remain on probation and attend a sex offender treatment program.
In 1995 and in 1996, the Oregon Department of Corrections recommended that his probation be revoked. His sex offender treatment provider wrote a letter saying McKenzie "is a fixed predatory pedophile who is extremely dangerous in the community."
McKenzie admitted that he had attended Jehovah's Witnesses meetings, where he was in contact with many young males, without receiving permission from his probation officer or obtaining an approved chaperon for the meetings.
"This is especially significant in that McKenzie's admitted history is that he met victims in the past through Jehovah's Witnesses gatherings," a probation officer wrote.
McKenzie is currently serving probation in Anchorage and could not be located for comment.
No court dates have been set in the case.
In October, documents were seized from a storage unit in Philomath and placed in a sealed envelope at the Benton County Circuit Court. According to court records, the envelope contains journals and documents belonging to McKenzie that may contain evidence of sexual abuse.
Brumley said his clients will continue to dispute the allegations.
"While our hearts go out to Tyler for the suffering he may have endured, we are confident that neither Watchtower nor any of the local congregation elders are responsible for what he alleges happened," Brumley said.
-
343
Defence of watchtower society Links
by reniaa ini thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
-
-
avishai
It ain't bias if they're full of shit and you know it. Check out his post on child molesting. She did'nt post it right, so you have to go to his homepage.
-
343
Defence of watchtower society Links
by reniaa ini thought long and hard before making this thread, that many will not agree with it but i think there needs to be balance and people to realise there are alternate viewpoints out there on many of these subjects, the ones that are most spoke about on this forum.
i was recently sent a full message containing mary's book and these links give the rebuttal to many of her points.
those that are still open-minded enough feel free to look over them even if in the end you still don't agree at least you have heard both the defence as well as the attack as they are on the internet.
-
-
avishai
Renaiia, there are "Opinions" and there are facts. OK? Their rampant covering up of child molestation is a FACT, I know this from firsthand experience, multiple cong.s. The UN thing is a FACT. See if you can find the resolution/pledge every jw took @ I believe the 1967 or 1968 convention. Once you read that, among other things, there is NO WAY to rationalize the FACTS about the UN.
-
12
Anne Rice comes to Jesus
by Dogpatch inhttp://www.cnn.com/2008/showbiz/books/10/31/books.anne.rice.ap/index.html.
new orleans, louisiana (ap) -- it's halloween, and anne rice has a new book -- a memoir, in fact -- that's climbing best-seller lists.
everything is normal, then.. anne rice says she hopes to take her skills writing vampire books and "redeem myself.".
-
-
avishai
I wouldn't call it all literary junk food. My problem with her is that her quality is really inconsistent. Some books, really good. Others, total crap.
-
22
The Final Push for World Government
by What-A-Coincidence inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1bjnkoqt8k.
throughout the history of mankind, the elite have always fought for world empire.
now, using secrecy and international banking systems, they are making their final push for world government.
-
-
avishai
>>>Thus sayeth the man whose number is 13,013.<<
Yea, verily, for he also tells us to "Pull the wool over our OWN eyes." -
22
The Final Push for World Government
by What-A-Coincidence inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1bjnkoqt8k.
throughout the history of mankind, the elite have always fought for world empire.
now, using secrecy and international banking systems, they are making their final push for world government.
-
-
-
20
Got some troubles....
by thebiggestlie inso i havnt posted in a while but i'm a regular lurker.
i'm 19 years old and live at home with the parentals.
i just admitted to them that i've been secretly seeing a "worldly" girl for about a year.
-
-
avishai
Who's the one threatening essential disowning if someone doesn't do what the other person wants? You or them? And you're actually wondering who has the loyalty issues? Where your allegiances lie? I don't see you blackmailing anybody. Or turning them in to janitors, etc. t decide their fat because you disagree with a decision. You are dating someone you care about/love. That's been happening for thousands and thousands if not millions of years. And yet your parents are acting like you are doing something "bad" and "unnatural". Kinda strange, isn't it?
-
35
China's Space Walk Was FAKE
by What-A-Coincidence inwhat about the us spacewalk?
was that fake too?
-
-
avishai
Well, they did fake the article. I don't often agree w/ WAC, but hell, they've faked food and toy safety for quite awhile. I wouldn't put it past them. And, no, I don't mean the "Chinese people" I mean their govt.