Saved_JW

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Posts by Saved_JW

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  24

  Churches helping neighbors instead of JW"s

  by life is to short in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  last week where i live we had the worst wind storm in the history of our area.

  we had gust of 71 miles an hour from 3 in the afternoon till 8 at night.

  it was like a hurricane at times the wind did sound like a freight train.

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  Saved_JW

  @Life short, are you in Spokane? if so that's where I am!
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  47

  Since you left, have you become more moral?

  by Coded Logic in

  1. social
  2. family

  respect.

  sympathy.

  gossip.

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  Saved_JW

  In regards to:

  Respect

  Sympathy

  Gossip

  Intellectual Honesty

  Fairness

  Family

  Equality

  Cost/Benefit

  Epistemology

  etc.

  . . . ?

  Scratching my head wondering what "Moral" standard these traits come from? Especially Equality. Are these supposed to be socially determined moral standards? Just confused
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  68

  My Explanation of God.

  by LAWHFol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am a theist & this is my version of god.. instead of using the term god, i'll use "unseen presence".. this unseen presence, is perfect in every way.

  this presence is so perfect it can seem a bit boring.this perfection can be seen in the laws of science, for example gravity.. it does not sometimes work, depending on the mood of some one in the sky, it always works, perfectly.

  gravity does not get angry and decide to stop working, and cause the death of innumerable living beings, it just works, through thick or thin, it is reliable.. what allows this unseen presence to remain perfect, is the fact that it does not act based on emotion, or strategy or regret.. it acts based on law, mathematical law.. this unseen presence is not partial to jews or muslims or jw's it is completely impartial at all times, to everything that exists.

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  Saved_JW

  Atheism simply means a lack of belief in gods, goddesses, spirits, a spirit world, fairies, etc. It makes no claims about the world, senses, etc

  I said atheism makes no assumptions, not atheists

  Sooo...a lack of BELIEF in Gods, goddesses, spirits...is NOT an assumption about the existence of god[s]?
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  68

  My Explanation of God.

  by LAWHFol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am a theist & this is my version of god.. instead of using the term god, i'll use "unseen presence".. this unseen presence, is perfect in every way.

  this presence is so perfect it can seem a bit boring.this perfection can be seen in the laws of science, for example gravity.. it does not sometimes work, depending on the mood of some one in the sky, it always works, perfectly.

  gravity does not get angry and decide to stop working, and cause the death of innumerable living beings, it just works, through thick or thin, it is reliable.. what allows this unseen presence to remain perfect, is the fact that it does not act based on emotion, or strategy or regret.. it acts based on law, mathematical law.. this unseen presence is not partial to jews or muslims or jw's it is completely impartial at all times, to everything that exists.

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  Saved_JW

  Atheism makes no assumptions about reality. Neither does science (which, in fact, has shown we cannot trust our senses quite often).

  @Viviane, I hate to break it to ya, but this statement is not only ignorant, but very unscientific. Without Assumptions about reality, we would not even have Science. Science MUST by necessity make assumptions about the natural world in order to test a hypothesis in the first place.

  Ill give you an example: Cognitive processes in the brain can be trusted to interpret the natural world.

  If what you say is true [science does not make assumptions] then there would be no reason to conduct an experiment since...well...the neurons bouncing around in my brain is not a reliable source of gathering data, nor can it be trusted to actually process data about nature. Well we know this isn't the case.
  
  Science as an ASSUMPTION will take for granted that our cognitive process is reliable. It assumes that the neurons in our brain can in fact interpret data correctly, and test theories based on it.
  
  Another huge assumption that Science makes is that Nature is generally predictable. In other words, the future resembles the past. A prime example of this is Carbon Dating. We have to first assume that nature has not significantly changed in the way carbon molecules decompose over time. We use present day decomposition rates of carbon and read that BACK into the data. This assumes that nature is consistent over time.
  
  I could go on and on with numerous examples of scientific assumptions.
  
  Now, when it comes to Atheists making assumptions, this is a lot different then scientists making assumptions.
  I gave an example of Richard Dawkins using an assumption of people having "Delusions" for belief in God. This of course assumes that there is a standard for sanity in the first place! [correct thinking] So there you have it, an Atheist [or Agnostic] who makes assumptions.
• 
  68

  My Explanation of God.

  by LAWHFol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am a theist & this is my version of god.. instead of using the term god, i'll use "unseen presence".. this unseen presence, is perfect in every way.

  this presence is so perfect it can seem a bit boring.this perfection can be seen in the laws of science, for example gravity.. it does not sometimes work, depending on the mood of some one in the sky, it always works, perfectly.

  gravity does not get angry and decide to stop working, and cause the death of innumerable living beings, it just works, through thick or thin, it is reliable.. what allows this unseen presence to remain perfect, is the fact that it does not act based on emotion, or strategy or regret.. it acts based on law, mathematical law.. this unseen presence is not partial to jews or muslims or jw's it is completely impartial at all times, to everything that exists.

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  Saved_JW

  True intellectual honesty says that one has to accept the unknown(s) or the yet to be discovered.
  

  I think humanity is better off dealing with accepted reality of are selves and the world in which we live in.

  If there is a discovery of a god of supernatural appearance then that will be become a known for humanity

  I am going to get philosophical here: The question of "Reality" has been a constant struggle for thousands of years. Even the ancient Greeks struggled to answer that question. Plato and Aristotle had to dig deeper and look to our ASSUMPTIONS of what "Reality" was in the first place. Is "reality" simply limited to our senses? [see,taste, hear, feel, smell] That may be a good assumption, however there are many cases where we cannot trust our assumptions.
  
  What I find funny is the famous Atheist Richard Dawkins titled a book "the God Delusion" The basic Atheistic assumption about reality is that you CAN trust your empirical senses as a measurement for reality. I find it ironic that the very title of his book assumes that people can in fact have a Delusion of reality based on their senses.
  The implications of this are huge. In some ways, Richard Dawkins admits that people cant [in fact] trust their senses.
  
  This brings us back to the post. You stated that intellectual honesty must start with "Accepted reality"
  Here is the problem with that assertion.... This is an argument from consensus. If the majority of people accept a reality, this must mean its true. I would challenge this. If 99.9% of people accept that 1+1=5, this does not make it true. There is a correct answer that exists outside the mind, in other words, a universal truth that is not dependent on the mind itself.
  
  I believe that there is absolute Truth that exists outside the mind. I believe it through deductive reasoning and logic. I don't believe truth is dependent on the mind, instead the mind recognizes and is dependent on truth.

  Truth manifests itself in absolute laws that are fixed [not capricious or random] 1+1 will always = 2; that law of logic is a reliable method of reasoning [There is no such thing as a married bachelor] etc.. I would be willing to go toe to toe on any Atheist on this board who insists on defending a universe without any absolutes.
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  68

  My Explanation of God.

  by LAWHFol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am a theist & this is my version of god.. instead of using the term god, i'll use "unseen presence".. this unseen presence, is perfect in every way.

  this presence is so perfect it can seem a bit boring.this perfection can be seen in the laws of science, for example gravity.. it does not sometimes work, depending on the mood of some one in the sky, it always works, perfectly.

  gravity does not get angry and decide to stop working, and cause the death of innumerable living beings, it just works, through thick or thin, it is reliable.. what allows this unseen presence to remain perfect, is the fact that it does not act based on emotion, or strategy or regret.. it acts based on law, mathematical law.. this unseen presence is not partial to jews or muslims or jw's it is completely impartial at all times, to everything that exists.

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  Saved_JW

  What your explaining is essentially Ancient Pantheism. What they called "Nature" is what you would call "god"

  Nothing new
• 
  17

  The Appeal and Draw of the Watchtower

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i first left the watchtower organization in 2008, a flood of emotions came back to me.

  betrayal, anger, resentment, deep depression from the relationships lost.

  emotions seemed to guide my viewpoint of others as well.

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  Saved_JW

  When I first left the Watchtower Organization in 2008, a flood of emotions came back to me. Betrayal, anger, resentment, deep depression from the relationships lost. Emotions seemed to guide my viewpoint of others as well. Why would people join the Watchtower in the first place? Are they really that "stupid"?
  
  Well, it has been a long time since I left, and I have had more then enough time to reflect on what I think are the main draws of the Watchtower Society:
  
  Pride
  
  At its core, the Watchtower is a Man Centered religion. What I mean by this, is the theology really starts with mankind as the central aspect of everything. Salvation starts with mans effort, Jehovah reacts to circumstances created by mans will, the Watchtower is the central aspect to religious practice. Even though Jehovah is given lip service, practically speaking Man is central.
  
  This serves as the foundation for why people stay in the Watchtower in the first place. Pride.... The Watchtower may not offer financial incentives, but it does offer power and influence over others. Elders are not seen as servants under others [which is biblical] they are seen as Masters OVER others. This type of model attracts a certain type of person to advance in the pyramid of power, namely "Yes men" not humble servants. Almost like attracting flies to rotten fruit.
  
  Fear

  The Watchtower's message is historically rooted in fear. The Very "Hell Doctrine" it criticizes from the Christian faith which is rooted in fear, the Watchtower uses the same technique to retain and maintain its own followers out of fear of absolute destruction.

  This is why so many JW's have a problem telling us what they stand FOR. If you ask any average Joe on the street "What do Jehovah's WItnesses Believe?" YOu will not get an answer that talks about paradise earth, or Gods Kingdom much less a discussion of the 1914 doctrine. You will get answers that more or less tell us what they DONT believe [birthdays, holidays, flag salute, etc..]

  If you think about War Strategies, leaders understand that fear can be an excellent emotional tool for conformity, but its major downside: It does not motivate in the long term. Using fear as a tool for manipulation is only effective in short periods of time. If abused, actually does the opposite effect and causes disloyalty.
  
  Cultural

  Its of my opinion that the vast majority of Jehovah's Witness do not understand the "Why's" behind their faith. They do not understand the reasons why the Watchtower has authority.
  Lets be honest, try asking a Jehovah's Witness to explain how the Governing Body was appointed over the domestics using Daniels Prophecy without referencing WT literature.... They would have a panic attack!
  
  Many Jehovah's Witnesses are in the religion because they know nothing different. Which brings up another thing, many in the religion are not "Stupid" at all. in fact, there are very smart individuals inside. Whether its true or not makes no difference. The first thing I had to accept was that not many people care about "Truth" when presented with positions of power.
  
  Think about the business world, many people will accept promotions in spite of their loyalty to the company itself. Because the opportunity presents itself with power and influence. This may explain why its so hard to convince people in the Watchtower of the fallacious nature of what they believe, because at the end of the day, this ISNT what keeps them there in the first place.
  
  There are may other observations I have, but since this is a discussion thread, I want to hear your opinion...
• 
  7

  Watchtower Paralells Mormonism

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  after leaving the watchtower i had a 2 year lapse where i was studying mormonism.

  not because i believed it, but because my girlfriend at the time was one.

  i took the time to attend ward meetings with her, attend after church activities, join my in-laws for "family home evening" i was pretty much immersed in the culture.

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  Saved_JW

  Similar, but not the same. LDS have two categories. 1- Disfellowshipping 2- Excommunication
  
  Disfellowshipping involves not taking of the sacrament, whereas excommunication isn't nearly as bad as the Watchtower. It just means no "Spiritual" discussion.
• 
  7

  Watchtower Paralells Mormonism

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  after leaving the watchtower i had a 2 year lapse where i was studying mormonism.

  not because i believed it, but because my girlfriend at the time was one.

  i took the time to attend ward meetings with her, attend after church activities, join my in-laws for "family home evening" i was pretty much immersed in the culture.

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  Saved_JW

  After leaving the Watchtower I had a 2 year lapse where I was studying Mormonism. Not because I believed it, but because my girlfriend at the time was one. I took the time to attend Ward meetings with her, attend after church activities, join my in-laws for "Family Home Evening" I was pretty much immersed in the culture.

  Looking back, I find it amazing to behold how much the Watchtower mimmicks much of the success the LDS church has with their programs. I am going to illustrate what I believe to be successful and unsuccessful implementations of their programs:
  
  1- Family Home Evening
  
  The LDS Church has had great success at this program which essentially sets aside 1 day out of the week [Monday] where the family will get together and have a spiritual discussion, hymns and games. This has been a staple in the Church for a long time. This program I believe is one of the most important since it creates culture in the church and helps with retention. Kids growing up in this environment will have fond memories with their family which they will directly associate with the Church itself. Genius!
  
  Recently the Watchtower has changed its version of the Family Bible Study, which was largely a snorefest which only focused on studying a piece of Watchtower literature. Hardly something kids will connect with. In imitation of the LDS Church, the Watchtower is playing catch up with its new program "Family Worship Night" [Yeah that's original]
  
  After viewing some of the videos of FWN, it seems they want this program to be a little more relaxed [such as the LDS Church model] My immediate impressions is that the Watchtower is more or less forcing a model of study on its members instead of letting the family heads take charge. Another top down model of worship that I believe is destined to fail.
  
  2- Media
  
  The LDS Church are masters of media and propaganda. They are always at the forefront of this. Over the past few years the LDS church has rolled out numerous different campaigns, one of note would be "IM A MORMON" where they show average [and diverse] groups of people on the job, in the home, and at church. They want the average joe to connect with them as "normal" people, and at the end they make the big reveal.... IM A MORMON.
  
  The Watchtower over the past couple of years has had to play catch up. JW Broadcasting, Cartoons, Apps etc.. all tools individuals have used to connect the modern world to the Watchtower Organization. This is one area which I believe the WT is having success with. Since the death of Ted Jarecz,[or however you spell his name] the old rugged Watchtower model of discipleship is gone away with. It will be interesting to see how the WT develops its own propaganda in the future.
  
  3- Relief Society
  
  The LDS Church has a womens organization called the "Relief Society" generally purposed to be the charitable arm of the Church. Members of this organization are encouraged to visit the sick, depressed, and other active members for encouragement and assistance. This again is a huge success for the church. Again, it keeps retention low, and encourages all members [even women] to have an active authoritative role in the organization.

  This is one area where the WT Fails miserably. The closest they have is the Elder Shepherding Call. Which again, is a completely separate category. The WT really has no outlet for women in the organization that encourages this type of fellowship.
  
  4- Apostolic Authority
  
  The LDS Church prides itself on having the only living prophet along with 12 disciples living on the earth. This is a much needed "X" factor that gives them an illusion of authority that can be trusted by the rank and file.
  
  The Watchtower has always struggled with this authority factor over the years, not quite knowing what to do with itself. On one hand they are the chosen "Faithful and discreet slave" class of men. But what SPIRITUAL authority do they have?
  Well they like to play both cards:
  
  On one hand, they play the humble, ever so human, bible interpreter that is no more special then you and me.
  On the other hand [when convenient] they play the spiritually anointed, Kingdom Priest who is given all earthly authority over the domestics.
  
  This plays on the mind of the Jehovah's Witness and they can switch between any of the view they want depending on the circumstance before them. Whats the bottom line? Well... The Watchtower has an identity issue with its authority. They are not prophets nor do they claim to be, they are not popes, essentially they are dealing with individuals in the Organization who only accept their authority based on a thinly veiled emotional acceptance of it.
  
  This causes huge problems when JW's and non-jws alike do not agree with a particular interpretation of scripture. The question will naturally arise: On what basis should I accept this?
  
  The Watchtower I believe is slowly moving towards the LDS model of authority. More recently they have used such glorious terms as: "Spiritual Mother" or "Glorious Ones" to refer to themselves. You will notice, as Jesus diminishes in their view of his divinity, so does the Governing Body Increase in its own authority.
  
  5- Authority in the limelight
  
  An extension of the previous point. The LDS Church has always kept its leaders in the spotlight. When I go to an LDS Ward, its not uncommon to see the "Hierarchy chart" of all the "Apostles" and prophets shrined in every activity room in the church. This serves as a continual reminder to all church members of who is in charge.
  
  The Watchtower has attempted to take the path of humility by not having their leaders in the spotlight. Up until the last few years, the only authority was the voice behind the Watchtower which more or less resembled the Wizard of OZ. Just an authoritative voice behind the curtain. More recently however, the Watchtower has picked up on the LDS Church cues and put the Governing Body in the center of attention with JW Broadcasting, constant streams of videos of special talks, annual meetings, etc... Its Governing Body 24/7!
  
  There are much more similarities that I could mention. Perhaps you guys have noticed some?
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  29

  Disaster Demonstration in Kingdom hall

  by Newly Enlightened in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwr9w_i02di.

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  Saved_JW

  ROFL. I am 99.9% Certain this is my old Kingdom Hall in Deer Park, WA!! Wow