Posts by sabastious

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

What exactly are you asking people to accept? (genuine question).

So you're asking people to accept the concept? The possibility? The fact?

sorry to be persistent Sab - what are you asking folks to accept? - GromitSK

People need to accept the idea of a spiritual realm. If you want a definition try, "What is above and beyond." - Sab

What I want for the world to accept is the validity of the idea of heaven and eternity. Calling it a "lie" is essentially a deletion process from society. Calling it a lie spontaneously creates liars out of good honest people and that's a travesty, even if it's just ideological. - Sab

No need to retype

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

So you're asking people to accept the concept? The possibility? The fact?

I get the feeling like the modern world would like to do away with ideas such as heaven. Ricky Gervais made a movie that essentially says that religion brought the lie into society. By offering comforting explanation to the near dead that eternal bliss was on the way. He called that a LIE. Wow, it was quite the bold move, to attack HEAVEN instead of just religion. We all make choices, I guess. He's a briliantly funny man, but if I were him I would take that one back. What I want for the world to accept is the validity of the idea of heaven and eternity. Calling it a "lie" is essentially a deletion process from society. Calling it a lie spontaneously creates liars out of good honest people and that's a travesty, even if it's just ideological. Experiences like NDE's are just one facet of how we, as a species, have interacted with the spirit realm otherwise known as heaven. We just need to rethink heaven, not toss it in the trash.

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

Frankly I don't follow the logic here. Whether there is even a 'God' at all is debateable in the minds of many. Digestion requires processing; if I eat it doesn't just turn into muscle/skin/bone or energy - there is a process to reach that stage. Conviction about OOB/the existence of God/whether a perceived communication is from God or not - requires a process before that information is useful. That process is a rational assessment of the experience. This will vary from person to person depending on the degree of proof they personally need. Trying to convince another person to be convinced because I accept the level of evidence I have is like offering them my toothbrush frankly.

It's a matter of trust or a lack thereof. Taking something through the digestion process is a matter of trust. Would you eat a penny if someone asked you to? It's not a matter of trusting the person, but rather the obvious element of danger. However, if a doctor tells a patient to ingest a cure for an ailment, the patient is left with the decision to trust the practitioner or not. Developing cures require a complex understanding of many scientific processes. If even one "i" isn't dotted or a single "t" crossed a cure could turn into a disease. Sometimes the risk isn't as obvious.

Just like with any doctor there is a developmental period where trust is built with God. In the end the answer is to take the advice given (digest), but a doctor doesn't mind being questioned. In fact a good one will encourage it.

What exactly are you asking people to accept? (genuine question).

People need to accept the idea of a spiritual realm. If you want a definition try, "What is above and beyond." Specifics about this realm have been relentlessly argued about since the dawn of humanity. To me, it's senseless to deem all their work in regards to that realm impractical to the modern world. Experiences such as Dr Sacks reinforce the idea that humanity is connected to what many have called a "higher power." If these highly personalized events are cherry picked out of historical context they can be dismissed as mysteries. Yet, it should be noted that such events are of no consequence to belief structures as they all share a doctrine of an immaterial realm. It simply isn't a mystery to them, just the secular community which seems to run a slower watch when it comes to spirituality. Although it's not unreasonable to reject all ideas about this spiritual realm without clear, reproducible evidence, it certainly is unreasonable to turn people who believe in such things into objects of ridicule. From the spiritualist's perspective, this all has never been an issue of evidence, but one of acceptance.

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

And how was that all documented? I mean, to be valid- it has to be documented that this person could not know what he knew and that it was specific.

Yes, that's precisely my point, it CANNOT be documented for others to enjoy and use. That's why I call spirituality personalized science. This is just a PERSONAL thing, but no less real than any other demonstrable experience. Once personal revelation occurs the person is sent on a life long journey and it's always tortuous as most people have to see to believe. Dr Sacks, and people like him, has a long and arduous road ahead of him.

Right now the general scientific consensus is that there IS NO spiritual realm, no soul and no afterlife. Most have accepted this even though they never had any reason to do so. It was always just a belief. The only support for the notion was that there was no reproducible evidence. However, with the idea that people can be FORCED into personalized science that cannot be documented (ie personal revelation) the old idea of the spirit realm should get a second look. Heaven is OLD NEWS when you think about it, it's just been removed from the table due to lack of reproducible evidence. There has always been loads of evidence, but it's been locked in the confines of the personal experiences of people. Therefore it slipped through the cracks of science, logic and reason.

Think about it, if I have to use my mind in a way I don't fully understand to accomplish science, how will others document it? What if they cannot use their mind like I can? Many would consider me a fraud and may even justify threatening my life. Simply put we don't know enough about the human mind to create the tests needed to document the activity for others. We simply are just not there yet, but we will be at one point. I suspect at that point all the skeptics are going to have to apologize to the religionists. Because even though everything went corrupt, it was all based on a real phenomenon that isn't totally explained even today. The secular community must concede, it's only a matter of time.

I have been saying this for quite some time now. The scientific method can be CIRCUMVENTED by entities who have the power and will to do so. We can have valid experience that we cannot demonstate to others. In no way does this make the experience not real or made up. Sure, lots of experiences can be shown to be false, but that doesn't mean that they ALL are and always were.

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

So many of your PROOF POSITIVE evidences are not that at all. How specific was the description of the dragon necklace? Why do you have to seek out a McDonald's restaurant that has a cashier wearing one? How many do you go to before you can give up? If I find a dragon necklace on the cashier's neck in the ChinaTown McDonald's, you declare an out-of-body experience because of such a coincidence? NONSENSE.

The experience involved floating down a known street and into a known McDonalds which means there is only one place to check. After awakening the subject travels to the location and to their amazement they find a woman cashier who looks exactly like the one in the dream and has the correct necklace.

Really, all you have to do is apply the same standards of requirements that you apply to rejecting valid evidence of scientific reasons for things and you will reject this kind of nonsense. "Seek out the McDonalds" ! Balderdash!

Thanks for flashing your critical thinking muscles, but they are not necessary and you seem to just be attempting to distract from my valid point.

-Sab

9

JW.org "Guard Against Ambition" Cult Speak Strikes Again

by BlindersOff1 in

in another wacky example of cult speak the society slams ambition.

.

http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/teenagers/bible-study-activities/david-absalom-guard-against-ambition/.

sabastious

Suggestion: Imagine a different ending to this
account. What might have happened if Absalom
had been modest rather than ambitious?—Proverbs
18:12.

The quote above seems to suggest that modesty is opposite to ambition. Very few ideas could be considered more cultish than that. The Bible says there is a time for everything, which would include both modesty and ambition. To make it an either or kind of thing is just emotional manipulation.

Ambitious: Having or showing a strong desire and determination to succeed.

So, the Watchtower is saying "Guard yourself against desire to succeed." Ambition is actually the enemy of mind control which is why it's being highly demonized as a path of doom. In reality, ambition doesn't always lead to an attempt to usurp a throne as in the case with Absolom. Yet, in the Watchtower ambition DOES always lead to revolution so they have to actively keep it at bay. Being evil is hard work apparently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk47saogI8o

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

This simply shows that untestable anecdotal experiences in an altered mental state are not good guides to reality.

Yes, on "paper" these types of tests don't stand up to other models which produce better more lasting results. However, NDE's are a specific case and serve as the exception to the rule, if you will. Dr Sacks is a perfect example of what I call Personalized Science, or better described as Spirituality.

Now, forget about any of the specifics of Dr Sack's story and use the dragon necklace example I previously stated which was wholly ignored. The person who experienced the NDE has an actual valid test they can perform. They can seek out the McDonalds that was in the "dream state" and if they find the cashier with the dragon necklace, they have PROOF POSITIVE evidence that their mind extrapolated real information around them without being physically present to it.

Now, the person KNOWS that what they experienced was BEYOND illusion or imagination as they have proof. However, this doesn't prove the existence of a spirit realm, but it does provide evidence towards that understanding of existence. Like finding an organic sample in the forest of an unknown creature. The evidence suggests a creature, but the specifics are sketchy. However, drawing a conclusion that there is no creature at all would be unscientific because that's ignoring evidence, it's essentially bias.

The great Thomas Paine had some brilliant insight on the subject of personal revelation. He said that any "revealed religion" doesn't actually have the right to impose their revelations on people who didn't experience it. He didn't question the validity of the alleged revelations of religion, he challenged the imposition of them and he was spot on in doing so.

So, basically what people like Dr Sacks experienced was PERSONAL revelation. Therefore anyone being told about the personal revelation will not be able to validate, they will have to use their God-given power of faith. Skepticism will always be logically available to people who are being informed of personal revelation. This creates the choice: to believe or not. What we choose to believe in is also personal and it's what God created us to accomplish. To freely put belief in something real which is outside of our understanding.

People simply need to see something for themselves rather than have a stranger, no matter how elevated, tell them it is so.

Yes, and such is one of the inherent problems that faces the whole of humanity. Jesus was reported saying to "be like children" when before God and that's because they are so trusting and faithful. A child will just take things at face value such as modern technology. Thousands of years ago there was no television or radio, but yet the children who grew up in times with those technologies just accepted them into their lives. Along with everyone children should be distrustful of MAN, not God. The reality is that everything laid out before us by God should be freely digested without question. However, as creations with free will we'll always have that tinge of doubt which we can freely choose to nourish or challenge. Faith is and always will be a staple of human society.

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

@sabastious - whilst I would agree there is a lot of testimony supporting an afterlife relating to NDEs, your simply stating it is true so 'get used to it' isn't really going to persuade those who don't share your view, as I'm sure you realise. Just because a person really believes their experience was what they think it was, doesn't make it so. Even if it is 'so', without some independent corroborating evidence, the experience is unlikely to have much evidential value to those who haven't experienced something similar, not should it IMHO.

I am not looking to convince anyone, the data speaks for itself. However personal experience is a type of truth that can be extremely difficult to prove to other people. For example, if one person has an NDE and floats into a nearby McDonalds seeing a woman behind the counter with a necklace adorned with a turquoise dragon that person has a legitimate and scientific way to verify the experience was real. If they can find the woman with the necklace they HAVE empirical evidence that their experience interacted with reality. The problem is that they cannot convince anyone else that the experience was legitmate. Because it cannot be reproduced laws like Occam's Razor will be used as a scientific scapegoat from the eternally skeptical. The fact is that one can BE a scientist and gather the evidence while remaining incapable of empirically demonstrating it to others. Such a scenario doesn't rob the scientist of credibility, but many deem that the case. These ones are in error.

This all serves as a perfect example of just how limited the human perspective on the universe truly is. It shows that actual reality, the one where an immaterial realm exists, is beyond our intellectual grasp. We can EXPERIENCE it and still not be able to DEMONSTRATE it. Such is with God and the Spiritual Realm. To rule out the possibility of an afterlife merely because of skepticism is an epic case of hubris.

-Sab

95

An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences

by cedars in

jw
friends

i've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.

it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.

he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .

sabastious

Near death experiences are next to impossible to study because of moral and ethical standards. The proof that they are real instead of imagined lies within the testimony of people who have experienced NDE's. What you will find is a plethora of stories that could NOT have been imagined. Such as seeing things that DID happen that could be verified. Like while in the out of body experience seeing someone wearing specific clothing and then after waking up finding that person who is wearing the correct clothing even though you never actually saw that person wearing those clothes. However this kind of proof relies soley on the testimony of humans which means it can never be 100% verified by the outside world. It can never be accepted Science until it's reproducible in a controlled environment, but this particular truth goes through human death and therefore renders many tests outside of an acceptable moral scale. Regardless, the people involved ALWAYS remain believers the rest of their lives. They have to, to deny it was real would be a bold face lie to them. What happened simply couldn't have been there own power or else we'd have to admit that at least some humans have telepathic powers that are trigged during NDE's.

Bottom line: the afterlife is real and it would simply be best to get used to it. It's actually a very good thing that every living human can and should be encouraged about. But oh wait, we live in the world of DISCOURAGEMENT. Hope never sells, only doomsday. All the lonely people, where do they all belong?

-Sab

93

Do People Believe We Are Condemned B/c of Adam and Eve?

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.

if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?

few people believe the stories in genesis.

sabastious

One can selectively quote from scripture to prove any argument. The JWs do it every single day. Context is important. It is silly to believe that the Jews are any more noble or brighter than any other group. There is nothing special to give their brand of religion legitimacy. What did happen was that Christianity adopted the OT to give stature to a new religion. Jews are humans, not better or worse. We have these stories in our contemporary culture for political and cultural reasons. Ask a Buddhist or Hindu what they think of the Torah.

My selection of quotes is directly from the content referenced in the OP (Adam and Eve i.e Genesis 2-3). The Watchtower is purposefuly deceptive, I hope you do not equate me with such deception as it would be a misrepresentation of the facts (not to mention rude).

It IS silly to believe that the Jews are a chosen people without providing sufficient evidence. The evidence, however, can be found in our historical record and the Scripture produced from the ancestors of this planet. The Torah birthed Christianity as Jesus came to fulfill Jewish law. This was not merely a political move, but one empowered by the will of the people who freely chose to follow the Spirit of Christ rather than men. The Romans eventually had to give in and accept it as the official state religion. Believe me they didn't want to do this, they were about total control, but they were not about to integrate Christ into their every day lives without a fight. They fought for as long as they could, but the will of the people won in the end. It is truly epic irony that after such brutal persecution of the Christians the ideologies ended up becoming the staple of Roman society into the distant future. This was a DEFEAT for Rome, not a victory as you seem to be purporting. They would much rather have had a DIFFERENT religious ideology, but they had no other choice if they wanted to continue their reign of power. In the end they were exposed as merely power hungry fools and now they are dust.

Buddhism and Hinduism doesn't acknowledge the superiority of the Torah becuase, like Ancient Rome, they only will do this when they have too. Jewish Scripture can be proven to be more than adequate when put up against anything else. For now the societies which favor other religions as superior are actually settling for an inferior tradition. It's not like those religious lead to the pits of hell, but the Torah must be acknolwedged, that it's purpose to permeate ALL of society. Without acceptence it is blocked and not fulfilling it's purpose. Both those societies you mentioned could easily make use of the spiritual frameworks taught through the Torah and it easily intergrates with what they have. However, if they choose their traditions over the Torah they will eventually corrupt because they are NOT enough. They will be exposed and be forced to accept the truth, it's only a matter of time which comes with suffering and agony. The choice has always been up to us and it's no different with them.

It is strange that an ancient Middle Eastern religion spread through Europe.

It's curious to me that you would find this strange. Clearly the Spirit of Christ is a real entity with power and authority. There isn't anything about Christianity that is glorifying unless you are into martyrdom. People have always died for their beliefs, but there is an obvious specialness to the stories of Christian faith that end in public execution. This is because what they experienced was REAL and worth dying for. The evidence is their consistant martyrdom. Why on such a large scale? The answer is that the Spirit of Christ is REAL and always has been. Something DID happen in the 1st century of which deperate attempts were made to cover it up. What we have is a mystery that requires solving and the solution is up to each individual (Philippians 2:12).

Jews, however, were important in European history but never the majority group. Without Christianity, we would probably not know Torah or value it so highly. I studied anthropology. Jewish or Christian exceptionalism is as bonkers as American exceptionalism.

Like I said Christianity is a direct result of the Torah and all it has to offer. Christ came to fulfill THAT particular law and now we have something to work with. Christ came with freedom and it's been here ever since, we just have to reach out and grab it like a wildflower in a meadow.

Jewish and Christian exceptionalism is a fact and those veins of gold in society paved the way for free nations like America. It's the western world that is exceptional which was redefined by America. It's the ideology that is exceptional which goes all the way back to the Torah (and the I CHING but that's another subject). Free western society is a direct result of Jewish and Christian Scripture.

You believe by faith. So do I. I try not to have an ill-informed faith. My view is that many roads lead to a spiritual life. The Christ is merely one. He just happens to be the main actor in the religious tradition of the faith into which I was born. JWs do not even truly believe in Christ. They are YHWHist of ancient Israel with a smattering of bizarre NT belief.

I used to feel the same way as you. I used to get mad at people for saying Christ is the only way, but that was because I didn't understand what that meant. While Buddhism and many religions are totally great, they don't work on the long term by themselves. Just look at India and China, they are not doing too well. This is because they are not embracing Christianity in the ways that they could. There is a false conception that accepting Christ means giving up your tradition. The truth is that Christ works WITH your tradition and is fully compatible with any train of thought the originates with Love. The prophets/gurus that start religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism are all loving and caring individuals. All have godly traits and should not be tossed into the trash in favor of Christ. However, Christ is still REAL and is the King of the Universe which means it's in everybodies best interest to learn about and eventually serve Him. Christ is the King of Buddah because Buddah was a king (Revelation 17:14).

I prefer to be open to all influences than rigidly belief in ancient scriptures. The world did not begin with a single human. It is totally ridiculous. Predestination, foreknowledge, and free will are impossible. I am hardly the first human to comment on the inherent fallacy in this account. The scriptures are no more determinate than WT literature is determinate. One can respect one's faith tradition without falling victim to believing it is the only one or proven true.

You are afraid of discriminating and that is a noble trait. It HAS been a human flaw since the beginning so your caution is more than warrented. The point I am trying to drive home is that all religion is compatible with Christianity except the one's the oppose Christ (Mark 9:40). Religion has NEVER been at odds with each other there just has been a wedge called racism between them all for as long as we can remember. The fact that you avoid discrimination like the plague is extremely encouraging. It shows that our society is improving and growing towards God.

Christ resonates for me. I affirm that Christ is fully human and fully God. Would I believe so if I were born in a different culture. I believe not.

So, do you believe Christ is ALSO Brahma or any other documented deities? Who historically do you mean by "Christ"?

Western social sciences use to proclaim others cultures uncivlized. Knowledge moved forward. To do so now is the greatest heresy. Perhaps b/c I lived in one of the main melting pots of the world, NYC, I knew many individual from other cultures. They were not any less than I was. It is vulgar to proclaim your culture's truth (and I do believe it is no longer a cultural belief. Secularism reigns in most educated circles) the one true one.

Ever since the Torah was written people had the opportunity to understand that ALL humans were created equal. As they were ALL made in the image of the One True God. The Torah starts out by equalizing all the nations by putting every living person, regardless of gender or race, all in one pot called "God's Offspring." That's why the Torah is SO important, because it sets down the precedent for human freedom (Genesis 1:26).

-Sab