(rather than continue to allow an existing thread to be hijacked by a different topic, i'm starting this new topic.
it continues an argument between myself and tallyman.
the question is, do jws refer to themselves as having a 'religion' or do they still follow the old rutherford notion of all religions being a 'snare and a racket'.
My understanding is that Jehovah's Witnesses are not a religion.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a legal corporation.
The Governing Body and the other annointed are the center of god's organization.
Individual witnesses supposedly subscribe to a certain way of life, but I've never heard it referred to as a religion
joeL
"through the ages the lavish wealth of religion that profess christianity has disturbed many people.
popes, bishops, and other religious dignitaries have lived in splendor supported by their flocks, many of whom have existed in poverty.
the situation has not changed in modern times.
When I was at Bethel, we got $17 a month for expenses and could request another $17 a month for travel expenses to our congregations. If I remember right, this went up to $22 a month each while I was there.
As far as I know, congregations are not asked to underwrite bethelites assigned to them, although we got fed A LOT. Even so, I lost weight at Bethel all the way down to 174, a weight I shall not see again this lifetime.
I worked in the subscription department when I was at the Farm and I know that expenses were watched very carefully. We had magic markers that we used to mark mistakes when proofing subscription stencils and we had to use them til the felt was below the metal. You had to go to the department overseer and he had to assign you a new marker when he deemed that the old marker was completely used up.
The food at Bethel was delicious. They fed us well. Especially breakfast. They had the best cheese, butter, ice cream and bread that I have ever eaten in my life.
hungry hugs
Joel
i finally found the words to describe what's happening with the jws all around me.
it's the difference between faith, and superstitious attachment.
the dictionary describes faith as found below.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing. 2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence
I find there to be an interesting dichotomy between definition 1 and 2 of faith. Both use the word believe but to me definition number 1 clearly pertains to faith that is based on experience whereas 2 pertains to faith that has no basis.
I have faith in people in my life who have proven to be that they are worthy of having faith in. There aren't many of these people.
I have always thought it odd that although the Bible in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures shows that God's people required him to demonstrate his power to them before they would have faith in him. God continuously was said to have given signs of his presence and power, making the sun stand still, parting the Red sea, resurrecting the dead, bringing plagues on a world power in a specific sequence. Then Jesus again also had to perform miracles in order for people to believe who he was. In other words, just saying he had the truth wasn't enough. In addition, not even living a good sinless life, dying for others, teaching with love, etc, was enough. He still had to perform miracles on and on and on in order to attract followers, again, raising the dead, healing the sick and crippled, feeding 1000's, turning water to wine, walking on water.
Yet, we today, in supposedly the most significant age of time ever for needing faith, are not provided with miracles. Jehovah has never performed miracles or had earthly representatives perform miracles for us to witness. There was no plagues on Nazi Germany due to the persecution of his people or in Malawi or in China or Russia, etc. They have been no mass miraculous signs to his people. There are no healings, resurrections, etc even though we have annointed brothers of Christ still here among us.
And yet, we will be judged forever based on our reaction to the words of this earthly organization.
Indeed, the Bible record shows that faith was always based on physical manifestations and was never expected without any basis for belief.
hugs
Joel
reality is a hard thing to keep at bay.
yet, many apparently prefer to live in a make-believe world, and so they readily embrace delusions for their own emotional comfort.
anything that seems to threaten the security of their fantasyland is dismissed, ignored, or ridiculed.
I do not suggest that You Know is impotent, but that his message is, even if it is true, since, in the way it is delivered, it will not have the affect of swaying people's behavior in a way that would be beneficient for them or for others.
However, this assumes that the intent of the message is to help people. That assumption is certainly questionable.
If someone is trying to teach someone, especially if someone is trying to teach someone something that is very important, one does not call the student stupid.
hugs
Joel
reality is a hard thing to keep at bay.
yet, many apparently prefer to live in a make-believe world, and so they readily embrace delusions for their own emotional comfort.
anything that seems to threaten the security of their fantasyland is dismissed, ignored, or ridiculed.
As the apostle Paul said,
any message delivered without love is just like a cacophonous noise that hurts the ears and falls to the ground impotent.
Joel
reality is a hard thing to keep at bay.
yet, many apparently prefer to live in a make-believe world, and so they readily embrace delusions for their own emotional comfort.
anything that seems to threaten the security of their fantasyland is dismissed, ignored, or ridiculed.
You Know,
Do you ever read my posts? I agreed with you earlier in the week that humanity was heading for trouble. I said I thought it was a bit further off. I disagree with you that some mystical force is going to save us from the natural ends to the decisions we are making now regarding not only the economy which is, in the end, a complete fabrication since money has no natural value, but also regarding our squandering of natural resources.
I am under no delusion that things are just peachy keen around the world. Indeed, I continuously strive to get people to think about their own reality and that of the universal living ecosystem.
However, in my search for truth and reality, I always search for the agenda behind statements that are held out as being true.
I question the agenda behind your doomsaying. If you cared about us and our life course, you would present your concepts and proof in a loving format for us to consider and learn from. But you don't.
You come here and lambast us as fools for ignoring the ever mounting signs of the end. Most of us on this board understand your point. However, when I looked at how witnesses in general were living I didn't see any real difference between them and the world. This acknowledgement that doom approached didn't lead them to act significantly different than any one else. They had friends, they got married, they bought houses, they furthered their careers, they had people at the hall they liked and those they didn't like,etc. etc. etc.
If I ever find a group which is truly seeking truth and a unified brotherhood of man led by the concept of love of neighbor, I will join it. But its a myth. It doesn't exist.
Love exists and I am satisfied that living my life in a loving manner is the best way to deal with any bad situation including an oncoming financial disaster if it should occur.
So many things could possibly happen. Meteors, widespread pestilence due to human error, financial collapse, etc. etc. etc. You believe that associating with a specific group will save you. I believe that living as loving as life as I can will perhaps not save me, but will make life as good as it can be.
hugs
Joel
reality is a hard thing to keep at bay.
yet, many apparently prefer to live in a make-believe world, and so they readily embrace delusions for their own emotional comfort.
anything that seems to threaten the security of their fantasyland is dismissed, ignored, or ridiculed.
If you go to the bottom of the article you see the agenda. Mr. Puplava is selling precious metals investing. Will Mr. Puplava profit from people investing in precious metals? I would bet yes.
Marketing is really pretty simple.
Create a need through enticement to pleasure or avoidance of pain.
Offer a solution.
Profit. This profit can take the form of money, power or simply self aggrandizement.
I'll let you decide which one You Know is after.
hugs
Joel
"through the ages the lavish wealth of religion that profess christianity has disturbed many people.
popes, bishops, and other religious dignitaries have lived in splendor supported by their flocks, many of whom have existed in poverty.
the situation has not changed in modern times.
I have been to the beach with Judah Ben Schroeder.
I just thought yall should know that.
hugs
Joel
picking up on some thoughts in an earlier thread, i have a question.. what does living without god mean or to put it in the positive, what does living with god mean?
what do you define as a life without god?.
what specific differences are there between a life without god and a life with god?
Picking up on some thoughts in an earlier thread, I have a question.
What does living without God mean or to put it in the positive, what does living with God mean? What do you define as a life without God?
What specific differences are there between a life without God and a life with God? Do these differences affect: your behavior? your viewpoint on life? your goals?
Thank you for your input.
hugs
Joel
i was baptized june 1, 1985. thats the day they started using the new baptismal questions in their baptismal talk on the baptismal day to all the baptismal candidates.
did any of you actually hear those questions they made you stand up to hear read?
would any of us at that moment in time actually have said anything but a resounding "yes!!!
I was baptized in 1973, but I don't remember answering the questions.
Lying is almost impossible for me. It is just totally against my nature.
I couldn't truthfully answer the the questions, so I didn't.
Does this mean I am not really dedicated and therefore that I can't really be disfellowshipped?
inquiring hugs
Joel
