i am now a jedi, so trust me on this.. .
why dis-associate, you are just playing by the wts rules?
how can you dis-associate anyway, you never thought you were baptised as a watchtower society member, you thought your dedication was to god, so why formally disassociate from something you did not formally join?
Thant you for your story RICHT, it was quite entertaining to read.
If you read the elders hand book you can see that the only way to get your baptism annulled is if you where participating in sinful behavior before during and after your baptism that, if the eldest knew would have stopped you from getting baptized. They are advised to contact the branch to make sure thou, maybe there will be a way to disfellowship anyways...
It is worth a try if you want a "clean" exit.
because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.
that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.
i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.
There are actual answers to the questions I asked, C0ntr013r. Agreed upon answers, and those you provided aren't them.
Well, then tell us.
we don't know for sure, but we have theories.
The theory that most appeals to me is how the Semitic region and the languages there (Hebrew, Arabic, Assyrian, even their parent, Aramaic, and other languages from closer regions like Azerbaijani, Yiddish, Persian) all popularized the use of stone tablets. The Commandments were written on stone, as was the famous Assyrian Flood Tablet that talked about a mega flood in the Middle East. People throughout history, broadly speaking, have been more right handed. When a right handed person takes a chisel and hammer to a stone, he tends to hold the chisel with his left hand and hammer with his right. So it makes sense to move from right to left (RTL).
Later, when paper became a more popular medium for writing, people started preferring LTR because writing RTL increases smudging.
This is one theory.
If you think the answer is: "that's just the way it is". I disagree with you.
Remember that there is a answer even if we humans don't know what it is.
because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.
that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.
i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.
I can prove that such ("that's just the way it is") can often be a valid answer and not an excuse.
For instance, why is Hebrew read for right to left and not left to right?
In Spanish, why is the word "table" in the feminine and the word "room" masculine?
Why does our existence exist?
There are questions without answers but I am not sure these qualify.
why is Hebrew read for right to left?
This I would guess have a historical explanation.
In Spanish, why is the word "table" in the feminine and the word "room" masculine?
Same with this one.
Why does our existence exist?
Because it is its very definition I would think.
Questions that asks about things outside of reality has no real answers.
It is a bit of a mind bender but here is an example:
Why is the grass green?
Because the chlorophyll in the grass when it is hit by the light that is reflected unto our retinas look green.
Yes, buy why green? What if it looked blue or yellow? Why are the universal laws constituting that, that chemical composition looks green to the human eye?
There is really no answer because it is outside our reality.
I agree with Viviane though, it is not a good respond when it comes to religion. But it does not matter because my goal is not to argue against your position but to understand it.
because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.
that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.
i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.
a need to be prepared for Jewish ambiguity
But how can you base your life around a belief system with ambiguity? How would you be able to tell if it was untrue? I think JWs have a lot of ambiguity and that is what is helping people wake up to TTATT. Is there something else that Jews have that the Christian religons don't have?
As to your question about life having contradictions and ambiguities...well, if you haven't noticed any yet, child just wait! They will slap you in the face soon enough.
So in your mind logical contradiction in life is the same thing as life being contradictory?
Life can be mysterious and have unknowns, even from a scientific standpoint
Do you believe that there are things science never can unravel or just that it hasn't yet?
So while you may want to know what my personal views are, if I don't have one I can't give one.
Maybe I should clarify, to know your personal views is not really my focus.
I want to know how a Jew thinks, not necessarily you personally.
As I said before:
Once you understand how someone thinks, you will be able to think like them.
I understand how JWs, atheist, agnostics, Christians think and so I can think like them, from there point of view. Put myself in their position.
I would like to be able to understand all people this way, including Jews ;)
Lastly I do not always have a personal view or opinion about matters that Judaism does.
I can appreciate this, and that is fine.
I would rather have a conclusion based on the application of the scientific method.
That is something we can agree on!
Often there are no definitive answers like the JWs offer for everything due to the fact that Jews aren't always looking for one.
Well, if there is "no answer", that is interesting too. It will help me and others understand better. JWs, Christians etc have things they don't have answers for too and that plays a huge part in understanding how they think.
because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.
that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.
i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.
To give some context.
A lot of Jews say “HaShem” when referring to G-d. “HaShem” is Hebrew for “The Name.” That’s pretty easy.
You say one of the reasons you don't write it down is because it could be missuses.
the name “God” might be destroyed as refuse
What is the reason for not saying the name, even quietly in a prayer?
As for repetition in prayer, I have no more to offer.
I have no personal opinions about this, actually.
I was merely curious about your point of view, thank you for your insight!
Remember unlike Christians, Jews are not bound to accept the written text as literal or to avoid looking at it critically.
But then what is stopping you from picking and choosing what God ordered and what people just attributed to him?
Some "Christians" interpret it literally, but that can be because they want to be consistent. Sure your interpretation can come from context, but when there is no clear indicator. How do you "unbind" yourself fom looking at it literally?
But you can try to find the good in anything and adopt what works for you.
Do you believe that the positive impact a interpretation can have on your life trumps the true message?
So the fact that Jesus may have been a prophet doesn’t mean that I also have to think he is the Messiah.
But if he was a prophet from your God, would that not make him just as important as Jeremiah or Elijah? Would not your connection to him be more than the connection between Mormons and JWs?
Jews don’t go around thinking about what they don’t believe about Jesus.
But I also believe that how the Christians interpreted Jesus of Nazareth was incorrect.
So you have studied Jesus enough to deem Christians interpreted him incorrect? But you don't think he is important so you don't think about how he could preform miracles?
I am sorry if I am blunt but I don't understand how you can combine these; to me, contradictory ideas.
I don’t even believe in a personal Messiah as being the fulfillment of Jewish expectations.
If another "prophet" like Elijah preached a personal Messiah? Would that be different?
It is the entire NRSV New Testament text with footnotes, commentary, and study articles from Jewish sources regarding the material.
Sounds a bit "heavy" for me atm :P
Lastly, no. I don’t blame Christians as a whole for the Holocaust.
My blame was on these so-called members of Christendom, the nations that either did something or failed to do something. But I can’t call to blame people who weren’t alive then or Christians as a whole.
kinda makes it hard for me to accept the claims about Jesus in the New Testament...but that's just me.
But you see a connection between Jesus and the holocaust that makes you turned off by Jesus?
I appreciate the questions, really I do.
Even though you don’t notice it, there seems to be something in your questions that is suggestive of Christian logistics. It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions. I’m glad you’re asking, but to understand you will have to let go. It will actually help you understand the following answers.
Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure. Like the American in my joke above, outside of this board they probably don’t go around thinking about G-d. To understand and appreciate the atheist one has to understand this as a constant. And one has to accept that their identity doesn’t stem from their not being a god. Their identity merely consists of this facet, which may be a very unimportant one for them on their list of convictions.
You have to do the same with Jews and Judaism. You have to accept Jews not from your perspective, but from that of a Jew. Like the way we read from right to left and place a headcovering on our head when we pray instead of remove one’s headcovering, you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.
Why not speak the Divine Name? What is stopping me from picking and choosing things from Scripture to follow or forsake? How do I unbind myself from the literal interpretation from Scripture? Why can a prophet like Jesus not be the Messiah? Why do things in Judaism seem so contradictory?
All you questions are answered with one simple answer: That’s just the way it is in Judaism.
Some of the reasons are use of logic. Some of the answers lie in how Judaism works. Others are bound to cultural constructs. And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.
It takes a long time to un-think like a Westerner or a Gentile and turn your thinking to naturally flow like an Easterner and Jew. It won’t make sense overnight or with a simple answer because it requires an approach that let’s go of what you are familiar with, what is making you ask questions. Once you learn it you will have other questions, of course, but that’s the way things are.
This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers. It’s complex because life is complex. It’s ambiguous because, again, that’s what life can be and often. JWs have a religion that is made up because they can’t deal with life and it’s lack of easy answers, it’s complexities, it’s ambiguities. Jews and atheists and agnostics often find more in common and mutual respect because of our approach. There are even crossovers like Jewish Humanists, and like I mentioned many atheist Gentiles who enjoy sharing in Jewish ritual. If you are really looking for answers about Judaism itself you might want to check out some books or websites. I will gladly help point the way, but I am not writing this information or am here to make converts or change people. But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.
We welcome everybody but we’re not in the business of proselytizing. We accept people as they are on their own terms and our religion teaches us that this is how we find the greatest gifts of G-d and from life. I want my friends to be Jewish and Christian and atheist and agnostic and straight and gay and Gentile and Muslim and etc., etc. And I want them to know I accept, love, and support them as they are.
because on another thread questions about just what the hell jews believe kept taking us off topic, i decided to start this new one.
that's why, as you will notice, it has that new thread smell.
i will do my best to give thorough and concise answers, but be warned: i do not take myself very seriously.
while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.
jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.
1. no scriptural concept of original sin.
Okay, sounds good!
Looking forward to it.
Maybe re post our conversation from this thread in the new one so it will be easier for others who want to join the conversation? Get everything gathered in one place so to speak.
Enjoy the donuts ;)
while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.
jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.
1. no scriptural concept of original sin.
while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.
jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.
1. no scriptural concept of original sin.
I am a very curious person who want to understand and know. I hope you don't think that I was trying to find faults in your religion. Nor that I am trying learning more because I want to convert to Judaism.
I simply ask because I have a inquiring mind and I apply logic, critical thinking and reason to it all, to better understand the world I live in. I guess that is why the JWs could not keep me trapped forever :P
You are probably right, I don't know more about Jews then what I learned in school. I know some of your customs, holidays, rules etc. What I don't know is why... Why do they; do, think, reason the way they do. You have given me great insight into the "Jewish mind" and I find it fascinating.
It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions.
Since I am not asking the question from my own point of view, but asking from different angels and views, many of which contradict each other, the questions are going to contradict each other.
I sometimes confuse people I discuss with because they think that I believe the view I am arguing from, when I am simply exploring the idea from another angel or belief system.
One way of thinking about it is; I am trying to understand your beliefs, not compare them to my own.
Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure.
Are you implying that i lack these things? I don't consider myself atheist, I know most atheist are agnostic. I consider myself "just" agnostic if that makes any sense.
It might seem like I am very interested in God/Judaism but the truth is that I don't think any more about those things than any other topic, I am simply curious.
you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.
Now, that is something I don't understand :P
Btw, why do you think I am a westerner?
And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.
Do you think life can have logical contradiction, if so. How?
This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers.
The answers themselves are not the most interesting, I am more interested in how you think and reason, what is the thought process behind etc.
Maybe my motives where unclear and I apologize if that is important.
But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.
Don't get me wrong, just because I don't understand you reasoning in some areas does not mean that I have not learned a great deal from you. I probably need to research Judaism to understand where you are coming from, maybe some of it is culture and have to be experienced first hand. Not just read about on a forum.
Imo, sharing perspectives is how we grow as humans.
Lastly I would like to share I saying I came up with when I wrote this reply, I think it kind off fits:
Once you understand how someone thinks, you will be able to think like them.
/C0ntr013r
If you want to continue to "educate" me in your views I am happy to learn. But if you don't find it "fruitful" that is okay too :)
while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.
jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.
1. no scriptural concept of original sin.
A lot of Jews say “HaShem” when referring to G-d. “HaShem” is Hebrew for “The Name.” That’s pretty easy.
You say one of the reasons you don't write it down is because it could be missuses.
the name “God” might be destroyed as refuse
What is the reason for not saying the name, even quietly in a prayer?
As for repetition in prayer, I have no more to offer.
I have no personal opinions about this, actually.
I was merely curious about your point of view, thank you for your insight!
Remember unlike Christians, Jews are not bound to accept the written text as literal or to avoid looking at it critically.
But then what is stopping you from picking and choosing what God ordered and what people just attributed to him?
Some "Christians" interpret it literally, but that can be because they want to be consistent. Sure your interpretation can come from context, but when there is no clear indicator. How do you "unbind" yourself fom looking at it literally?
But you can try to find the good in anything and adopt what works for you.
Do you believe that the positive impact a interpretation can have on your life trumps the true message?
So the fact that Jesus may have been a prophet doesn’t mean that I also have to think he is the Messiah.
But if he was a prophet from your God, would that not make him just as important as Jeremiah or Elijah? Would not your connection to him be more than the connection between Mormons and JWs?
Jews don’t go around thinking about what they don’t believe about Jesus.
But I also believe that how the Christians interpreted Jesus of Nazareth was incorrect.
So you have studied Jesus enough to deem Christians interpreted him incorrect? But you don't think he is important so you don't think about how he could preform miracles?
I am sorry if I am blunt but I don't understand how you can combine these; to me, contradictory ideas.
I don’t even believe in a personal Messiah as being the fulfillment of Jewish expectations.
If another "prophet" like Elijah preached a personal Messiah? Would that be different?
It is the entire NRSV New Testament text with footnotes, commentary, and study articles from Jewish sources regarding the material.
Sounds a bit "heavy" for me atm :P
Lastly, no. I don’t blame Christians as a whole for the Holocaust.
My blame was on these so-called members of Christendom, the nations that either did something or failed to do something. But I can’t call to blame people who weren’t alive then or Christians as a whole.
kinda makes it hard for me to accept the claims about Jesus in the New Testament...but that's just me.
But you see a connection between Jesus and the holocaust that makes you turned off by Jesus?
