Posts by JosephAlward

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

RWC asked,

"Why don't you find a "contradiction" in one Gospel where it says that Jesus did not arise from the dead and one says he did"

I'm more concerned with showing the Bible has errors in it, and not just small ones, but important ones.

Before you can ask people to believe the gospel writers' statements that Jesus was resurrected, you have to show that they knew what they were talking about. Evidently, they did not know what happened, really, at the tomb, because one of the writers thought that Mary saw a "young man" in the tomb, and said nothing about two angels, while another writer said nothing about a young man, and instead thought Mary saw two angels.

Please explain why this is not an error.

Also explain, if you will, why one author said that Mary met Jesus while she was running, full of joy, from the tomb, but another author said that a sad Mary encountered Jesus while she stood near the tomb. These accounts are utterly incompatible. If not, why not?

I reprint below for your convenience, the evidence I've used to allege Bible error. All of this was posted earlier; there is nothing new below.

Mary Met Jesus as She Was Running with Joy from the Tomb

So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." (Matthew 28:5-9)

Mary Met Jesus While She Stood Crying Outside the Tomb

Mary stood outside the tomb crying [because the tomb was empty]...she turned around and saw Jesus standing there... Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" (John 20:11-18)

There Was a Young Man in the Tomb

As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side (Mark 16:5)

There Were Two Angels in the Tomb

Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. (John 20:11-12)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

RWC,

You haven’t explained why Matthew did not think it was important for his readers to know that Mary had rushed to tell Peter that “they” had taken Jesus’ body. While you’re pondering that problem, here are two more contradictions:

Matthew and John contradict each other in the matter of Mary’s encounter with Jesus. Matthew thinks Mary encountered Jesus as she was running with joy from the tomb after hearing of Jesus’ resurrection from the angel.

However, John thinks a very sad Mary, who thought Jesus’ body had been stolen, stood outside the tomb, crying her eyes out in sadness, when Jesus appeared. The relevant verses are below.

Mary Met Jesus as She Was Running with Joy from the Tomb

So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." (Matthew 28:5-9)

Mary Met Jesus While She Stood Crying Outside the Tomb

Mary stood outside the tomb crying [because the tomb was empty]...she turned around and saw Jesus standing there... Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" (John 20:11-18)

Which is it? Did a joyful Mary encounter Jesus as she ran from the tomb, or did a sad Mary encounter Jesus as she stood outside the tomb?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark and John contradict each other in the matter of angels inside the tomb. Mark says that Mary saw a young man sitting on the right side, but John says nothing about a young man; he thinks Mary saw two angels.

Here is the evidence:

There Was a Young Man in the Tomb

As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side (Mark 16:5)

There Were Two Angels in the Tomb

Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot. (John 20:11-12)

Who or what did Mary really see inside the tomb? Was it one young man, or two angels? Or, were there one young man and two angels?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

RWC,

Matthew said that after Mary fled the tomb, and before Mary met the disciples, she met the resurrected Jesus, who told her to tell the disciples to meet him in Galilee.

Thus, Matthew's Mary has no reason to believe that anyone took Jesus, for she had seem him with her own eyes, alone on the trail. And, Matthew's Mary obviously understood that Jesus had not been "put" somewhere.

However, John's Mary evidently doesn't know what Matthew's Mary knows, because after John's Mary fled the tomb she told the disciples that "they" had taken Jesus and she didn't know where he was!

Please answer these questions:

1. Why did John's Mary not tell Peter she had seen Jesus, and instead told him that "they" had taken Jesus, and that she didn't know where they had put him?

2. Do you not believe that Mary's choice of words to Peter would have led him to believe that someone took Jesus' body and put it somewhere?

3. How is it possible that Mary, who met Jesus on the road, thought Jesus had been "put" somewhere?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

RWC,

You are overlooking the main thrust of my argument about what Mary Magdalene knew. Matthew tells us that Mary Magdalene was told by the angel that Jesus had risen, and was on his way to Galilee, and that Mary had actually met Jesus on her way to inform the disciples. How do you explain, then, why John's Mary Magdalene told Peter that "they" had taken Jesus and that she didn't know where he was "put"?

Did John's Mary forget that she met Jesus, as Matthew claimed? How could John's Mary believe that Jesus had been "put" somewhere, when Matthew's Mary was told by Jesus himself that he was on his way to Galilee? How do you answer these questions?

Why didn't John's Mary tell Peter that the angel said Jesus had risen, and that she had met the resurrected Jesus on the trail? Do you not think that John's Peter would have thought that Mary was telling him that the body was stolen? Do you not think that John's Mary would have told Peter that she saw Jesus with her own eyes, if indeed John's Mary had seen him? Would not that information have been exceedingly important to convey? If not, why not?

Here, once again, are the passages upon which I've based my argument:

Matthew

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb…The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." (Matthew 28:1-9)

John

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" (John 20:1-2)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

One of the most blatant examples of contradiction between gospels is found in the stories of the resurrection morning.

According to Matthew, Mary Magdalene was told by the angel at the tomb that Jesus rose from the dead, and is on his way to Galilee. As she ran, filled with joy, to tell the disciples, Mary Magdalene met Jesus, who told Mary to tell the disciples to meet him in Galilee. This is in complete contradiction to the story told by John, who tells of no angel at the tomb, says nothing about Mary actually meeting Jesus, and has Mary run to tell Peter that "they" took Jesus, and she doesn’t know where he is! The relevant passages are below:

Matthew

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb…The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." (Matthew 28:1-9)

John

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" (John 20:1-2)

Both of these stories cannot be true. The angel told Matthew's Mary Magdalene that Jesus rose from the dead and would meet the disciples in Galilee, and a joyful Mary actually met Jesus on her way to tell the disciples the good news. However, John's Mary Magdalene seems worried when she tells Peter that unknown persons ("they") have removed the body she went to anoint, and that she doesn't know where they "put him." Did John's Mary forget that she had just met Jesus, and that he spoke to her, telling her where he was going? Why didn't John's Mary tell Peter that she saw Jesus, spoke to him, and that Jesus wanted them all to go to Galilee, where Jesus would meet them? Why did John's Mary lie, and tell Peter that "they" took the body, and that she didn't know where they put him? The answer is clear, I believe: John and Matthew wrote resurrection stories based on two separate traditional beliefs about what happened when the women visited the tomb. The stories cannot each be true, and perhaps neither of them is.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

KJV,

No, it wasn't done by an earthquake; the angel rolled back the stone.

In one account the author tells us the stone had already been rolled away before the women arrived at the tomb, while in the second, the author describes what happens after the women arrive at the tomb: the angel rolled away the stone. The stone could not have been moved away before the visit, and after the visit.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

67

Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb

by JosephAlward in

the following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.

according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.

matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.

JosephAlward

The following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint Jesus’ body are contradictory. According to Mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away. Matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back. One of these gospels writers is wrong, or both of them are. Either way, the Bible has a very serious error in it.

When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. (Mark 16:1-4)

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. (Matthew 28:1-2)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

18

Irony in Mark

by JosephAlward in

taking care of the son of god.

mark creates a story in which mary thinks that jesus is out of his mind, and must be taken charge of (mark 3:14-21, 31).

next to god himself, the last person one would expect to reject jesus' divinity would be his mother.

JosephAlward

RWC asks,

Is Matthew wrong if he says that Jesus said to get a donkey and a colt and Mark says Jesus said to get a colt?

If the writers were just recounting what they recall seeing, or what they thought was important, then one could understand if one of them didn't mention both animals, if indeed there had been two animals. But, unfortunately for the apologist, the two writers claim to be telling us what Jesus actually said, what words he actually used. It is not possible for Jesus to have said, as Matthew claims,"ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her, AND for Jesus to have said, according to Mark, "ye shall find a colt tied."

Thus, we don't know which of the two quotes from Jesus are correct: Did he say there would be found just a colt tied, or did he say there would be found a colt and a donkey tied? Furthermore, did Jesus ask that a colt be brought to him, or a colt and a donkey? One of the gospel writers is clearly wrong, and that means the Bible is in error.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

18

Irony in Mark

by JosephAlward in

taking care of the son of god.

mark creates a story in which mary thinks that jesus is out of his mind, and must be taken charge of (mark 3:14-21, 31).

next to god himself, the last person one would expect to reject jesus' divinity would be his mother.

JosephAlward

RWC,

The contradictions I asked you to try to resolve do not deal with whether there could have been a second animal with Jesus when he entered Jerusalem; the contradiction I’m alleging concerns what happened before the ride into Jerusalem.

I’ll provide again the relevant verses and then ask again the questions I wish you to focus on.

Mark

And …he sendeth forth two of his disciples, And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him…And they brought the colt to Jesus (Mark 11:1-7)

Matthew

And …then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. (Matthew 21:1-5)

The three questions I had hoped you would answer are these, RWC:

1. How Many Animals Did Jesus Say Were Tied?

Did Jesus say that the disciples would find a colt tied, as Mark claims, or did he say they would find a colt and an ass tied, as Matthew claims? They cannot each be right about what Jesus said. Either Jesus said what Mark claims, or he said what Matthew claims, or else he didn’t say what either of them said he said.

2. How Many Animals Did Jesus Say Should be Brought to Him?

Did Jesus say, “Bring him,” as Mark claims, or, “Bring them,” as Matthew claims? Again, Jesus couldn’t have said both of these things.

3. Did They Bring One Animal to Jesus, or Two?

Did they bring to Jesus just one animal--a colt, as Mark claims, or two animals--a colt and an ass, as Matthew claims?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

18

Irony in Mark

by JosephAlward in

taking care of the son of god.

mark creates a story in which mary thinks that jesus is out of his mind, and must be taken charge of (mark 3:14-21, 31).

next to god himself, the last person one would expect to reject jesus' divinity would be his mother.

JosephAlward

RWC,

If you wish to confirm that scholars in the religious studies departments at secular universities, such as UC Berkeley, Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, and another dozen or so of the top ten universities whose professors are not expected to hold to Biblical inerrancy,you might want to access their web pages and write to professors who specialize in the gospels. Ask them if they believe that all or part of the gospels are fictional, and that Jesus' historicity is in dispute. It would be better if you do this yourself, don't you think, rather than your having to take my word for it?

Now, RWC, I've given you quite a bit of evidence which I think shows that the gospels are fictional, and you've dismissed my arguments in general terms, saying that my arguments are unsupported, but you've never given a substantive and supported argument in rebuttal. Would you care to defend your view that Matthew did not manufacture fictional gospel stories? Perhaps you can start by explaining why you think that Matthew was right about Jesus having his disciples fetch a donkey AND a colt, and then explain why Mark, Luke, and John said that Jesus only had his disciples fetch a donkey. This argument was presented in detail in another thread on this forum. If you cannot show that there is no error here, then perhaps you should take a very close look at your beliefs. Which of them are based on your own careful research of the Bible, and which of them do you believe just because others believe them, too.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html