Posts by JosephAlward

53

Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

abandon family to serve god ?

a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

JosephAlward

GRUNT wrote,

"In all of his life, it seems to me, he reflected love towards everyone he was around"

JOE ALWARD responds:

No, he did NOT seem to love everyone he was around; he called the Pharisees and Sadduccees "vipers," and was angry that they wanted to be baptized and thus saved:

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? (Matthew 3:7)

If Jesus was loving of all mankind, he would have been DELIGHTED to have his enemies show up to be baptized by him, wouldn't he?

Furthermore, Jesus wanted his message of salvation to be HIDDEN from all but the chosen ones, so he spoke in parables, so only the ones he WANTED to be saved would understand his message . According to the authors of Matthew and Mark, these parables were not meant to be understood by anyone other than "the lost sheep of Israel". Jesus told these parables to prevent the Gentiles from understanding the word of God, and thereby prevent their entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Mark Said Jesus' Parables Mystified Outsiders

Following Jesus' parable about the sower of seeds, Mark has Jesus tell his disciples that he wants to make sure only his followers hear the truth and understand the mysteries, while the Gentiles remain in the dark. Mark then tells us that Jesus, when he is alone with his disciples and out of the earshot of unworthy Gentiles, speaks to his disciples directly and without the need for parables. Here is Mark's story:

And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude.....And he taught them many things by parables....And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them... Unto you [his disciples] it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: [in order] that... they...not perceive...and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.....But without a parable spake he not unto [his disciples]: and when they were alone, he expounded ALL THINGS (emphasis added) to his disciples. (Mark 4:1-34)

You see? Jesus "expounded all things" to his disciples, but kept the salvation message HIDDEN from the gentiles. This is not the act of a man who loves all men. If Jesus loved all men, he would have tried his best to make the message of salvation clear to all men, not just the "chosen ones."

Thus, Mark tells us that Jesus, without speaking in parables, "expounded all things to his disciples". Since Jesus did not want those outside his group of followers to know the mysteries of God, he spoke to them in parables in order that they would not learn that which is necessary to be saved. Mark's view receives support from Paul in a letter he he wrote to church members in Corinth, Greece, a city he chose for evangelizing: "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ) Thus, Paul is telling the reader that God gives up on those who he believes are lost and hides from them the light of his son's glorious gospel.

Matthew Also Thought Parables Hid God's Message from the Gentiles

The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathering together unto him ....And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because [in this way] they...see not... and hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:1-13)

Matthew cites scripture to justify his having Jesus hide God's message from the Gentiles: "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive." (Matthew 13:14) The scripture to which Matthew refers is the one in which the command is given to "shut the eyes" of the Gentiles: "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." (Isaiah 6:9-11)

This is not the only time Matthew demonstrates his belief that God's message of salvation was not to be wasted on Gentiles. Matthew has Jesus give his famous speech urging his followers to ignore them : "Go NOT into the way of the Gentiles....but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ( Matthew 10:7 , Matthew 15:24 ) (Emphasis added)

So, you see? Jesus evidently did NOT love all men. He wanted only a certain class of men to be saved. Not only did Jesus not show any affection for his mother and brother, he outright rejected them at the house where they had come to take charge of him, and he specifically said that he had come to earth not to bring peace, but to turn family members against one another. Jesus was not the all-loving person people would like to believe.

Joseph F. Alward
"A Skeptical View of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

53

Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

abandon family to serve god ?

a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

JosephAlward

Know-You writes,

YOU have been provided numerous examples:

Joe Alward responds:

Actually, I have not been provided any example which shows Jesus promoting FAMILY togetherness, or showing love toward his own FAMILY members, or encouraging one of his friends to love his FAMILY more. I began this thread to offer a possible justification for shunning family members. If the Bible doesn't show Jesus loving his FAMILY, and counseling others to do all they can to foster familial togetherness, it is not surprising that in some religions family takes a back seat, while religion rides up front.

If any one of the hundreds of people in the forum knows of a single verse which shows that Jesus promoted family togetherness, or showed even ONE single act of kindness toward his mother or brother, or asked or counseled a disciple or follower to show more love toward his family, I hope they will show it to the rest of us. If it's not shown, we should assume that such a verse doesn't exist.

Edited by - JosephAlward on 14 October 2002 22:5:8

53

Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

abandon family to serve god ?

a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

JosephAlward

Here's additional evidence that Jesus was not a peace-loving, family-oriented teacher:

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-36)

How could the son of God--if that's what he was--NOT have come to earth to bring peace, and why would he come to earth to turn family members against each other? Didn't he know how to bring them closer together? He SHOULD have known, since he was the son of the all-knowing God. Now, you can either believe that Jesus was not peace-loving, and not pro-family, or you can believe that Matthew was wrong about what Jesus said. Either way, the Bible is in big trouble.

I'm still waiting for a verse which shows Jesus promoting family togetherness, or showing love toward his own family members, or encouraging one of his friends to love his family more. If they don't exist, then the verses which DO exist, which show him denying a man time off to bury his father, and asking people to hate their mother and father, and his testimony that he came to earth to turn family members against each other, should be proof enough even for true-believers that Jesus was NOT pro-family, and was indeed quite the opposite. This is perhaps how some JW's justify giving up on family members who leave the organization.

Joseph F. Alward
"A Skeptical View of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

53

Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

abandon family to serve god ?

a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

JosephAlward

This thread is not about whether Jesus showed love or kindness to strangers. I'm still looking for acts of love and kindness by Jesus toward a FAMILY member, or a friend. For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that the twelve disciples could be counted as Jesus' friends. Did Jesus ever express love for his mother, or brothers, or one of the disciples, and did he ever do an act of kindness toward them?

53

Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

abandon family to serve god ?

a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

JosephAlward

Island Woman wrote, "You know very well that just as many if not more scriptures could be cited which support the other side, that Jesus taught to love others including family and friends."

Joseph Alward responds: I would be happy to modify my position on Jesus' attitude toward the family and friends, but I'm not aware off-hand which verses in the Bible explicity have Jesus expressing the view that one should love one's family and friends. I also don't recall any instances where Jesus demonstrated an explicit act of kindness toward a friend or family member. If these verses exist, will someone kindly point them out to me? If they don't exist, then perhaps Island Woman will need to rethink her position. If they DO exist, then I will have to rethink mine.

Joseph F. Alward
"A Skeptical View of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

53

Jesus Set Precedent for Shunning

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

abandon family to serve god ?

a contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve god.

matthew claims that jesus told his disciples to "honor your father and mother.

JosephAlward

Abandon Family to Serve God ?

A contradiction not often discussed relates to the biblical teaching to abandon family in order to serve God. Matthew claims that Jesus told his disciples to "Honor your father and mother." (Matthew 19:19), but this cannot be reconciled with the example set by Jesus, as the passages below will show.

Jesus enticed two separate sets of brothers away from their families, the first being the fishermen Simon and Andrew, who left their trade and, presumably, their family, to follow Jesus (Mark 1:16-18). Later, James and John did the same thing, leaving their father behind (Mark 1:19-20).

That Jesus explicitly encouraged his followers to abandon their families is made clear in Luke 14:26, where the writer has Jesus tell his followers to think more of him than their families: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

Jesus contempt for all things familial is further illustrated in the story of the disciple who begged for permission to bury his father: "Lord, first let me go and bury my father," Jesus told him to let him rot: "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." (Matthew 8:21-22) You would think that the son of an all-loving God would be sensitive enough to the poor son's grief that he would give him a few hours time off to tend to his father's corpse. Either Jesus wasn't the son of a god, or else Matthew was wrong about what Jesus said, or the historical Jesus never existed. Either way, the Bible has a big problem.

Jesus later set the example for others to follow, by himself abandoning his mother and brother. After his mother and brothers had said that he was out of his mind, and appeared outside a house to take charge of him," (Mark 3:21) Mark does not have Jesus invite her inside, nor does Mark have Jesus go outside to greet her. Instead, Mark has Jesus makes it clear to his followers inside the house that he does not regard the woman outside as his mother. He explains to his followers what his definition of a mother is: A mother is whoever does the will of God, (Mark 3:31-35), with the clear implication being that one who didn't recognize Jesus as the son of God was obviously not in tune with the will of God:

"Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you. Who are my mother and my brothers? he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:31-35)

Thus, Jesus effectively abandons his mother to serve God, thereby setting the example for the readers of Marks gospel to follow should their families, too, not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Thus, almost two thousand years before the practice of shunning of unbelieving family members was put into practice by a multitude of Christian cults, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, the precedence for this behavior was established by Jesus himself.

Joseph F. Alward
"A Skeptical View of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Edited by - JosephAlward on 14 October 2002 19:31:43

29

The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

joe alward .

the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

JosephAlward

Bona Dea observers, "Perhaps, they just couldn't make up their minds as to which command to observe"

Joe Alward comments:

That's an amusing possibility. I imagine the explanation is pretty simple: the folks who decided which writings should appear in the Bible seemed to care little whether the passages were consistent. They just provided a cross section of stories and opinions about Yahweh, never mind whether the writers contradicted each other.

29

The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

joe alward .

the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

JosephAlward

Joseph Alward writes,

In trying to erase the obvious contradiction found in Genesis concering the creation of the sun, apologists fail to explain how there could have been a "morning" and then an "evening" on the first, second, and third days without a sun. Mornings begin when the earth's rotation gives the appearance of a rising sun, while the evenings begin when the sun appears to fall below the horizon. None of these events could have happened during the first three "days," because there was no sun until the fourth day. If there's no sun, then there could have been no sunrise or sunset.

12

SALVATION?? What is it really?

by mamashel in

just wondering what some of your thoughts were on this topic of salvation.

i've heard alot about it and really want to believe it, but i am having such a hard time understanding about god and jesus christ since leaving the org.

i am fed up with organized religion and am afraid to go to chuch.

JosephAlward

Joe Alward writes,

Mouthy, there is no "salvation," if by that you mean living in some spiritual sense after your death. There's zero evidence of any type of life after death, or any type of "heaven," unless you count the "evidence" that exists in the imagination of hopeful people. Furthermore, if you're looking for a salvation prescription in the Bible, you won't find it; there exists in the Bible a mass of confliction opinions on how one is saved, so we cannot believe any of them. Here is a sample of what you'll find:

Save Yourself with Good Works Jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: Obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns. Thus, by doing these good things, one gains salvation.

18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' " 21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
(Luke 18:18-22)

Good Works Dont Gain Salvation For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)

8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. (2 Timothy 1:8-9

Love Your Neighbor to Go to Heaven

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live. (Luke 10:25-28) Faith is Not Enough

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14)

Have Faith and Be Baptize d

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved , but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Predestinatio n

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

So, you see, Mouthy, some writers think faith alone is enough for salvation, while others think one must not only have faith, but also do good works. For another, doing good work alone (giving all your money away) is sufficient to go to heaven. Finally, one author thinks it was all decided before the time of creation which names would appear in the book of the saved. It's all nonsense, Mouthy.

In my opinion, if you're looking for a rule to follow, adopt the attitude of the writer in Ecclesiastes, who wrote

"Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

"So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him. All share a common destiny--the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good man, so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths, so with those who are afraid to take them. This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all.

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

"Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do...Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love " ( Ecclesiastes 9:1-11NIV)

In my opinion, you have one life to live, and you should live it without worrying about a nonexistent "salvation."

........................

Defining "grace":

Grace : The divine favor toward man; the mercy of God, as distinguished from His justice; also, any benefits His mercy imparts; divine love or pardon; a state of acceptance with God; enjoyment of the divine favor. Here's is some of what the Bible says about grace:

And if by grace, then is it no more of works. --Rom. xi. 6. My grace is sufficient for thee. --2 Cor. xii. 9.

Edited by - JosephAlward on 13 October 2002 22:23:39

29

The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

joe alward .

the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

JosephAlward

A PADUAN writes,

What is it with the insistence on literal reading...?

JOSEPH ALWARD responds:

If the Bible-believer is forced to agree that some of the passages in the Bible are not literally true, then he has little defense against those who would argue that perhaps most of the stories about Jesus in the gospels are not literally true, either. That means that perhaps the "resurrection" was not a bodily resurrection, but merely a spiritual one. In other words, Jesus didn't die physically for our sins, didn't spend three days and nights in the tomb, and didn't ascend to heaven. In other words, perhaps it's all make believe. This is the argument that faces those who don't insist that the Bible be taken to be literally true in all of its parts.

Of course, this insistence causes no end of problems for the apologist, who must explain, for example, how it could be that there were "mornings" (sunrises) and "evenings" (sunsets) on the first three "days" of creation, even though the sun wasn't created until the fourth day. Or, how it could be that Jesus spent three days and nights (literally) in the tomb, even though he was buried just before sundown on Friday (just before the beginning of sabbath), and was missing from the tomb on the "first day of the week" (Monday). Count the days and nights, and you will see they don't add up to three each. There are many other problems that face the apologist who insists that the Bible is literally true, which he MUST do, according to Saint Augustine, who wrote:

"The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books....If you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true." --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28.

Joseph F. Alward
"A Skeptical View of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html