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I cannot understand why you--or any JW would think that one would have to lack "principles" before they could lie to the beast. That seems utterly nonsensical. After all, it is the beast, you know. Are you sure that's what you wanted to say?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/.
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We have already had testimony from forum members that misleading the enemy is an accepted practice by the Watchtower, and surely the purple beast is a great enemy, indeed. Thus, it would be entirely consistent with Watchtower teachings for it to deceive the United Nations.
What I would like to have help with is this: Are there any teachings which indicate that Jehovah's Witnesses could on occasion be proactive in an effort to weaken the beast? Would it be appropriate, for example, for a JW or a governing body representative knowingly to exaggerate the shortcomings of the United Nations, paint it in a false light, or highlight its failures while downplaying its successes? Would Jehovah approve of that?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/.
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Saint Satan presented a description of Watchtower doctrine that interested me very much:
One of their main doctrines is that there are two orgs: jehovahs, made up of jesus, good angels and jws. On the opposing side is the devil, demons and all the people. There is supposed to be a huge contest between god and the devil. Satan is supposed to have challenged that he and the people are able to do well without gods directions. If humans succeed in making this earth peaceful, stopping crime etc, it would prove the devil right and god wrong. Jws are to support gods side of this contest at all times. Business, religion and politics are claimed to be satans main tools on the earth. The un is the presumed to be the main satanic political weapon which satan is using to prove mankind is capable of reaching peace without god.Thus, if the United Nations appears in the eyes of the public to be succeeding--or at least making progress--in its stated goal of improving life on earth, then this would make it harder for the Watchtower to hold on to its current members and recruit new ones.
This makes sense to me, but I haven't seen a Watchtower article that backs this up. Can anyone provide it?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
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In regards to my wish to see a copy of the application form on which some forum members believe the Watchtower's representatives affirm that they accept the aims and goals of the United Nations, Hawkaw states
Joe,I have not obtained a copy of the paper you desire because the Department of Public Information refuses to release the file.Has anyone asked Paul Hoeffel to provide a copy of a blank form from 1991, or at least a copy of an already completed form, with all of the information whited out? If not, why not? I would think that would represent virtually conclusive proof that the Watchtower representatives did, indeed, sign their names in 1991 to a paper which asked them to agree to the goals of the United Nations. Surely the Department of Public Information could have no objection to providing a blank copy of the application form.
I will make this request by telephone tomorrow (Wednesday), but I don't have high hopes of hearing back from them quickly; I emailed them yesterday, and there's been no response back yet.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
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Saint Satan,
Thanks for posting the list of NGOs; I had seen that one a long time ago, but it's nice to see it again. It shows that the Watchtower is listed by the UN as an NGO.
But, what I'm looking for is evidence that at the time of the initial application (1) a signed statement of acceptance of the United Nations goals was necessary to be granted NGO status, and (2) that such a statement was actually signed by Watchtower representatives. The circumstantial evidence offered against the Watchtower so far seems weak to me. I see only very benign--and very brief--references to the UN in six articles from the Watchtower organization, but they seem no more inculpatory than references they might make about the activities any governmental or political body.
Now, others have noted that there is a "reapplication" process. Might it NOT have been necessary repeatedly to affirm that the organization accepts the goals of the United Nations? Exactly WHAT--if anything--did the Watchtower put in such reapplications, and how do you know, for sure?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/.
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Here's a copy of the email I sent to [email protected]:
Dear Sirs:Has anyone asked similar questions and received an affirmative reply? I'll let the forum know what I find out as soon as I'm able, but in the meanwhile, surely someone else has already asked these questions and received a reply. What did he say?Can anyone in your organization confirm that the application by the Watchtower Society for NGO status included a statement to the effect that the signers of the application--or the organization they represent--accepted the aims and goals of the United Nations, and which was signed by representatives of the Watchtower?
Note that I'm not asking what the current policy is now; I'm asking about the original application form submitted in 1991 or 1992. Did it have a statement about aims and goals which had to be signed by the Watchtower, and do you have that document, with the Watchtower representatives' signatures?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/.
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joe, send an email to [email protected] ask about the wt involvement with them .they will send a document to you.if you want to know who signed the application, call and ask.
they wont release the copys for obvious reason.
I will do as you suggest. May I ask what others learned by doing the same? Did the UN representative you spoke to state that he has seen the application signed by the Watchtower, and on which it is stated that the signers accept the aims and goals of the United Nations?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/.
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Until I see a copy of a paper signed by Watchtower representatives which plainly indicate the signees must accept the aims and goals of the United Nations, I'll be less inclined to believe that the Watchtower knew about the criteria. Their formal response is that they did NOT know, and all that speaks against this is circumstantial evidence.
Furthermore, you have to ask yourself this question: Does it make sense that the Watchtower agents would sign a statement pledging to accept the aims and goals of the purple beast, knowing that such a document would be public knowledge? Now, you may say, that wouldn't have been the first time the Watchtower has done something utterly stupid, and I would agree, but, really, which is more likely: They did NOT sign such a public disclosable form, or that they DID, knowing that it might be made public?
I need to see the paper I asked for before I'll believe that they signed such a paper. Is this not the least you would want, too, before you accuse the Watchtower of such a gross stupidity?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69/.
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Does there exist a copy on the web of a paper signed by the governing body on which it is stated that the signers of the document agree with the ideals of the United Nations?
Saint Satan:
Yes
Will someone please provide the URL which shows this document?
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
after the lord had drowned every living thing on the surface of the earth except noah and his family and the animals brought to the ark, he told noah that from that time forth there would be no more apocalyptic floods, and as a token of his good intentions the lord would create the rainbow:.
and god...spake unto noah, and to his sons with him, saying...i establish my covenant with you.... neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
and god said, this is the token of the covenant which i make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: i do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
After the Lord had drowned every living thing on the surface of the earth except Noah and his family and the animals brought to the ark, he told Noah that from that time forth there would be no more apocalyptic floods, and as a token of his good intentions the Lord would create the rainbow:
And God...spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying...I establish my covenant with you.... neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. (Genesis 9:8-14)
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
