Posts by JosephAlward

13

Were the Gospel Writers Really Eyewitnesses?

by JosephAlward in

in defense of the inerrancy of the bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

let's consider the case of the gospel called "mark.

" the writer of those jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill scripture?.

JosephAlward

If the infinitely wise and all-knowing god of the Bible exists, then that god obviously would have been smart enough to know that Bible readers would understand that Jesus was completely alone as he prayed at Gethsemane, so no one could have overhead his prayer.

Thus, God would know that readers would conclude that Mark's story was at least part fiction. Now, if the words in Mark are from God, then we may presume that God did not want readers to think Mark just made them up, so God would have instructed Mark to explain to his readers that God told him what words Jesus used in his prayer. Since Mark did not do this, we may conclude that God did not help Mark write his gospel.

If God didn't tell him, then how did Mark decide what words to have Jesus say in his prayer? The answer to this question is found in the accounts of the life of King David, who was said to be the spiritual ancestor of the coming savior. Mark believed that some of the events in the life of David were foreshadowings of events in the life of the coming savior, so Mark made sure that Jesus' life mirrored in part the life of David. Thus, when Mark read David's lament about an enemies at his supper table,

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. (Psalm 23:5)

he made sure that Jesus likewise had an enemy sit at his last supper:

When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me (Mark 14:17-20)

The parallel Mark constructed between David and Jesus doesn't end there. Mark also saw in the Scriptures that David was betrayed by someone close to him, someone who dipped his bread in the bowl with David:

David's counselor…is among the conspirators… (2 Samuel 15:12, 31)…. Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me." (Psalm 41:9)

Since Mark felt sure that it was preordained that someone close to Jesus-- someone who shared bread with Jesus--would conspire against him, he made sure it happened:

"I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me--one who is eating with me…one who dips bread into the bowl with me." (Mark 14:17-20)

After learning of his betrayal by his counselor, David goes to the Mount of Olives and expresses his feeling that God's will for him will be done:

"let him [God] do to me whatever seems good to him." (2 Samuel 15:25-26)… David continued up the Mount of Olives (2 Samuel 15:30)

Mark wanted the same thing to happen to Jesus. After Mark has Jesus speak of his betrayal, Mark sends Jesus to Mt. of Olives to pray, just as did David after his betrayal:

they went out to the Mount of Olives. (Mark 14:26)…[and Jesus told God,] "Yet [do] not what I will, but what you will." (14:36)

Thus, nobody heard Jesus' prayer--if there was a prayer, and God did not tell Mark what Jesus said in the prayer. What actually happened, the evidence shows, is that Mark just assumed that the events following David's betrayal would have to be echoed a thousand years later in the life of Jesus. Following the betrayal by a friend that Mark manufactured for Jesus, Mark had Jesus travel up to the Mount of Olives, just as David did, and express the view that God would do with him what it was God's will to do, just as did David.

The words of Jesus' Gethsemane prayer were put there by Mark, and are complete fiction.

There are many more parallels between David's and Jesus' betrayals that Mark included in his narrative, but I'll leave those for interested readers to pursue. These parallels are described in considerable detail in the article, "David and Jesus," on the web page in the signature below.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

13

Were the Gospel Writers Really Eyewitnesses?

by JosephAlward in

in defense of the inerrancy of the bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

let's consider the case of the gospel called "mark.

" the writer of those jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill scripture?.

JosephAlward

In defense of the inerrancy of the Bible, many believers make the assertion that the gospel writers wrote about what they witnessed firsthand.

Let's consider the case of the gospel called "Mark." The writer of those Jesus stories does not tell us he walked and talked with Jesus, or that he witnessed any of the events he described, so why should we not believe that he was only reporting what someone else said happened, or perhaps what he thought should have happened to fulfill Scripture?

Defenders of the Bible can read Mark from front to back, and they will find no evidence that the writer was actually there to witness the events he described, and hear the words of Jesus. On the other hand, there is evidence that he was not there. Consider, just for one example, the agonizing prayer of Jesus at Gethsemane:

They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled. "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," he said to them. "Stay here and keep watch." Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. (Mark 14:32-37)

Jesus only took Peter, James, and John with him; there is no mention of anyone named "Mark." Furthermore, the writer makes it clear that Jesus was alone when he prayed. How did anyone know what Jesus said, let alone Mark, who was not with Jesus at that time?

There is additional evidence that Mark made up this story. It can be found in the article at http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/David_and_Jesus.htm

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

As further support for my argument that Mark had Jesus keep his miracle-making secret in order that he not be arrested before Scripture was fulfilled, I offer the following three items:

Jesus Must Die

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. (Mark 14:21)

Mark thought Jesus was meant to "go" in the manner described in Scripture--following a betrayal by a friend who dipped his bread in the same bowl as Jesus. The script written in Scripture for the savior had to be followed, Mark believed. Thus, Mark had Jesus say that he would "go" in the manner described in Scripture, and that would be following a betrayal by someone close to him. Mark had Jesus admonish the ones he healed to remain silent about their miraculous healings so that the readers would understand why Jesus went so long without people finding out he was a miracle-worker and therefore the son of God.

The Sheep Will Be Scattered

"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' (Mark 14:27)

And that’s exactly what happened when Jesus was arrested: “Then everyone deserted him and fled.” (Mark 14:50) If Jesus had let himself be discovered as the son of God prior to his betrayal by Judas and the subsequent arrest, then he would not have been arrested, and there would have been no scattering of people in fulfillment of Scripture.

The Arrest Would Occur Only After Betrayal by a Judas

Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled." (Mark 14:49)

Jesus explained to the high priest and the crowd with him at his arrest what they would not have understood: It was preordained in the Scriptures that the son of God would be betrayed by one close to him, so the reason why the high priest didn’t have Jesus arrested earlier was cosmic in nature: He could not have arrested him earlier, since it was Jesus’ destiny to be arrested only after Judas had betrayed him.

More On Mark's Use of Irony

On the separate matter of Mark’s use of irony to create his fictional accounts of the life of Jesus, let me add here the additional irony that Mark has the people in Jesus’ hometown reject him as a “carpenter.”

Isn't this the carpenter? (Mark 6:3)

In Isaiah 44, the prophet speaks of those who fashion false gods as “carpenters” whose eyes are plastered over and who don’t understand.

All who make idols are nothing....The carpenter ...makes a god....They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. (Isaiah 44:9-18)

If readers in this forum will search through Mark, they will find a number of examples of Jesus ridiculing those who have eyes but do not see, or have ears but do not hear, and those who do not understand. All of these references to eyes not seeing, and ears not hearing, is a reference to those whose senses do not allow them to know the true god.

Thus, Mark has Jesus, the one who accuses others of having eyes which do not see and not understanding, is accused of having eyes which do not see and being one who does not understand. This is the best of all of Mark’s fictional ironies.

By the way, the later gospel writer, Matthew, evidently wasn't comfortable with the notion that the son of a god was a mere carpenter (he didn't understand Mark's use of Isaiah here), so Matthew changed Mark's story and made Jesus the son of a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), not an actual carpenter himself.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

Pseudo,

Yes, it is very interesting that Mark has Jesus try to hide his divinity, but the reason for this has less to do with Mark's tendency to embellish his stories with irony, and more to do with his need to have the readers believe that Jesus was dead set on having his life be lived out in the manner in which Mark believed was preordained for the savior described in the scriptures. Repeatedly we find Mark having Jesus refer to those things which were "written" about what would happen to the son of God. When Mark has Jesus try to keep his identity a secret (cautioning those he healed to tell no one), Mark is having Jesus make sure that those who would reject him and kill him would have the opportunity to do so: if they found out he was God, they would love him, not kill him, and this would not be a fulfillment of scriptures, as Mark saw them.

This explains why Mark invents the story of Jesus explanation of why he talks in parables: so that people who otherwise would be saved by his words of salvation, would not be saved (Mark 4:12). That's a pretty bizarre theology, but evidently Mark believed that God wanted some folks not to accept the word of God, so that they might perish.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

Let me summarize my argument that Mark’s view of Jesus and his mother is different than Luke’s:

1. Luke begins his stories about Jesus by telling us that the virgin Mary was visited by God’s angel, Gabriel, who told her she would give birth to the son of God (Luke 1:34-35).

2. Mark begins his stories with an adult Jesus, and never has anything to say about Jesus’ birth. If he knew that Mary was told by God’s angel that Jesus was the son of God, he said nothing about it.

3. One of Mark’s themes is the abandonment of job and family to serve God. Jesus enticed two separate sets of brothers away from their families, and later set the example for others to follow, by himself abandoning his mother and brother. These events are recounted below:

The fishermen Simon and Andrew left their trade and, presumably, their family, to follow Jesus (Mark 1:16-18).

Later, James and John did the same thing, leaving their father behind (Mark 1:19-20).

After his mother and brothers had said that he was “out of his mind,” and appeared outside a house to “take charge of him (Mark 3:21),” Mark does not have Jesus invite her inside, nor does Mark have Jesus go outside to greet her. Instead, Mark has Jesus makes it clear to his followers inside the house that he does not regard the woman outside as his mother. He explains to his followers what his definition of a “mother” is: A “mother” is whoever does the will of God, (Mark 3:31-35), with the clear implication being that one who didn’t recognize Jesus as the son of God was obviously not in tune with the will of God.

Thus, Jesus effectively abandons his mother to serve God, thereby setting the example for the readers of Mark’s gospel to follow should their families, too, not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Thus, almost two thousand years before the practice of shunning of unbelieving family members was put into practice by Jehovah's Witnesses, the precedence for this behavior was established by Jesus himself.

4. Mark loves to use irony in telling his stories about Jesus. One of his ironies is the rejection of Jesus by those who knew him best. Surely, readers would expect that those closest to Jesus would be the first to recognize his divinity, but that was the opposite of what Mark has happen; therein lies the irony.

The first instance of rejection by those who knew him best is the one just described, in which Jesus’ mother and brothers declared him to be out of his mind and in need of care. It is obvious that if they knew he was God’s son, then they would have known that either Jesus himself or the all-powerful God had infinitely more wisdom than they had to know what was best for Jesus to do and to say, and they would have just have left everything in God’s hands--or Jesus’ hands. It is virtually absolutely clear, then, that--according to Mark--Jesus’ mother and his brothers could not have known that he was the son of God. Mark’s readers knew about God saying that Jesus was his son (Mark 1:11), but his mother didn’t. More irony.

The failure of Mark’s Mary to recognize that Jesus was the son of God is totally at odds with Luke’s Mary, who knew even before Jesus’ birth that he was the son of God because God’s angel told her so. Thus, either Mark’s “Mary” is the false Mary, or else Luke’s is, or perhaps both are false Mary’s. Either way, the Bible is in error.

The next instance of rejection of Jesus by those who knew him best occurred in his hometown, where he was ridiculed by those who referred to him as a common carpenter, and one whose mother, sisters and brothers were ordinary townsfolk (Mark 6:3). How could a god be related to mortal and quite ordinary common folk? Mark’s readers knew that Jesus was God, but the people who rubbed shoulders with Jesus did not know. More irony.

The final rejection of Jesus by one of those who knew him best is the one best known to readers: Judas, who dipped his bread into the same bowl as Jesus did (Mark 14:18-20), betrayed him to the Romans.

Other irony by Mark include his tongue-in-cheek naming of the man chosen by the crowd: As it was customary at Feast time for a prisoner to be released, Mark had Pilate give the crowd a chance to release Jesus, who the readers know is the son of the Father in Heaven, but instead they choose to have released another man whose name means, “the son of the father”--Barabbas (Mark 15:1-15). Mark just loved inventing incidents which dripped with irony. But it was irony which he hoped would serve him well: the message to the readers of his gospel was, Don’t you be as foolish as those in the crowd.

Yet another contrived irony occurs when the mocking soldiers pretend to crown a “king” by putting a crown of thorns on Jesus’ head, and calling him “king of the Jews.” Little did the foolish soldiers know that they actually were crowning the greatest king of all time.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

RWC believes that

the Bible teaches that Jesus will not reject anyone

but he evidently either overlooked what Matthew had Jesus say, or didn't understand its implication:

You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? (Matthew 12:34)

Does RWC think that calling someone evil and a snake amounts to accepting that person?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:31-35)

Rather than spending their time thinking up far-fetched scenarios in an attempt to deny that Mark had Mary deny Jesus' divinity, apologists should explain why Mark had Jesus reject his mother. The reason, I believe, is obvious to all but those who would rather die than admit the Bible is in error. The reason Mark had Jesus say that the person outside was not his mother was that Mark, in effect, earlier in Mark 3:21 had her deny that Jesus was the son of God, thereby going against God’s will, and anyone who does not do God’s will cannot be a “mother” to Jesus, according to Mark.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

RWC wrote

I think that it is unbelievable that Mary knowing that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit while she was a virgin....[to] believe that he is out of his mind. It makes no sense....

Of course it doesn’t make sense, and that’s the point. The “Mary” Luke described cannot be the same one Mark described. At least one of them is wrong.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

The comments below expand upon the argument I presented earlier.

The Mother of Jesus Thought He Was Deluded

Mark told us in Mark 3:21 that the “family” thought Jesus was nuts, then later identifies the family members in Mark 3:31 as the “mother and brothers.” It doesn’t get much clearer than that. If Mark wanted us to understand that Mary knew Jesus was God, he certainly never would have used words that strongly indicate that Mary thought Jesus was “out of his mind.”

Abandon Family to Serve God

One of the more important themes of Mark’s gospel is the need to abandon family to serve the Lord. This teaching is articulated in Luke 14:26, where the writer has Jesus tell his followers,

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)

The first example of abandonment of family is found in Mark 1:19, where at Jesus’ invitation, John and James suddenly leave their father Zebedee to become his disciples. The next occurs when Jesus family arrives at the house in Mark 3:31-35 to take charge of him; rather than going outside to greet them, or inviting them inside, Jesus instead explains that his real family are his followers inside the house with him, the ones who do God’s will, not his unbelieving mother and brothers outside. With this act, Mark has Jesus practicing what Luke said Jesus preached: abandonment of family in order to serve God. Now we can better understand why Mark had Jesus’ mother and brothers reject Jesus' divinity earlier in Mark 3:21: It made it easier for the readers to accept Jesus’ rejection of his family waiting for him outside the house.

Rejection of Jesus by Those Who Knew Him Best

Rejection of Jesus by those who knew him best is another important theme in Mark’s gospel. It occurs first with his mother and brothers, who declared him “out of his mind,” and again three chapters later, when Jesus is rejected by the folks from his hometown. There, the townspeople mock him as a simple “carpenter” who pretends he can work miracles. (Mark 6:1-4) It occurs once again, of course, when one of Jesus’ disciples--someone who obviously doesn’t believe he’s the son of God--betrays him.

We thus see that the picture painted by Mark is quite clear: Those closest to Jesus disbelieve him, and that includes his mother. However, since Luke tells us that God's angel told Mary the Holy Spirit would cause her to have a child who would be the son of God, it's impossible to understand how the Mary in Mark's gospel could disbelieve the claims of Jesus' miracle-working. Thus, one or the other of the two gospel writers--or both--are wrong.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

126

adam & eve

by gotcha in

does anyone here take the creation story literally?

if yes, did u do ample research and think carefully but still believe in it?

if u don't think that the story should be taken as literal, what is your reading of it and do u still believe in the bible as the inspired word of god?...thanks in advance..

JosephAlward

a Christian writes,

I have seen you attack the Bible here several times before. But this was the worst aledged Bible contradiction I have ever seen you post. Obviously the "family" members who thought Jesus was "out of his mind" in Mark 3:21 did not include Jesus' mother, because Mark 3:31 clearly indicates that Jesus' mother "arrived" after they had said this.

That’s preposterous; your rebuttal of my allegation of Bible contradiction is one of the worst I've seen in several years.

Are you seriously arguing that the "family" Mark told us was headed to the house to "take charge" of Jesus because he was "out of his mind" is not the members of his family--"mother and brothers"--who later arrived at that house?

If so, then perhaps a second reading of the relevant passage will change your mind. Here it is again:

14 He appointed twelve--designating them apostles--that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach ...15 and to have authority to drive out demons...20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat....[H]is family...went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind." ...31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. (Mark 3:14-31)

This should be perfectly clear: the people who said he was crazy were the same people (Jesus' family) who went to the house, and the same people (mother and brothers) who arrived at the house.

Thus, his mother thought he was "out of his mind" and needed to be taken charge of, according to Mark. Mary, if Mark is to be believed, could not possibly have believed that her son was the son of God, as Luke tells us. This means the Bible is in error.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html