Posts by JosephMalik

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

Undisfellowshipped,

There is nothing wrong with my work even though some of it is speculative and based upon observation more than text. It is intended to stimulate thinking and challenge the distorted views Trinitarians are teaching today. The problem with Trinitarians is that they have a poor sense of context and do not grasp how creative authority was delegated. Angels transmitted information to man using the personal name of God as if they were God in person and yet we should have understood that it was done in this way. So even if Jesus said that He was YHWH we should not say this proves that he was God in person. Such fundamentals are ignored. The word God and its uses itself is not properly understood as even Satan is god of this world. Scripture is worked backwards instead of forwards, not building on root texts such as this. Context itself while invisible is also discernable but only if it is not mixed up with distorted views.

Joseph

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

I stand on what I have said - there's no verse that says "Jesus" and the annointing is that of the Spirit, to the one who is Teacher.

"y ou have one Teacher, even Christ", who says, "Call no man on earth Teacher".

Paduan,

I understand it quite well. You have no verse that teaches the trinity period, as you implied when you brought up this text.

As for the annointed, the expression Spirit in that text is not a reference to another person that makes up the trinity. It is perfectly proper to call Christ teacher as He is excluded from the comment made by Him. And Jesus is the Christ in this verse as stated earlier and as shown in the KJV.

Joseph

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

Paduan said: To continue on the same basis on which my accepted meaning was called to account - do you have a copy that actually says "Jesus" - not 'master'.

Paduan,

The King James or Authorized Version as it is also called says:

Matt 23:8 (AV) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Where you put Spirit in verse 8 the AV puts Christ. Are you saying that Jesus is not the Christ in this text? Here is your accepted version again:

Paduan said: But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher

(the Spirit), and you are all brethren.

And here is the Strong?s definition of Rabbi:

AV-Master (Christ) 9, Rabbi (Christ) 5, rabbi 3; 17

1) my great one, my honourable sir

2) Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

Rabbi, Master, Christ represent proper use of this word, but adding Sprit is not. You have no support for your view. Other verses have their own context in which they are to be understood but not this one and it should not be mixed in with this verse as you did in this thread.

You have no proof for the trinity doctrine, not here or anywhere else in scripture. That is what you intended to do with this verse and failed.

Joseph

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

Do you have a bible copy that says "Jesus" ?,

Paduan,

Yes, Jesus is called the Master in the King James Version or AV that I quoted. Just refer to my response on this verse in this thread.

Joseph

25

Gentile Times - When did they end?

by Justin in

recently a poster commented that pastor russell may have clapped his hands two days too soon because the gentile tiems were not supposed to end until october 4/5, 1914. i guess october 4/5 is the date now given (though i haven't seen it in print, being unfamiliar with the newer publications), whereas russell was satisfied to have passed october 1.. one would assume that, as the downfall of the judean kingdom (supposedly in 607 bce) was the beginning of the gentile times, that whenever they ended in 1914 would be the date that would correspond to the overthrow in 607 bce.

(it would, given all the society's presuppositions, be difficult to come up with an exact date, as the hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar and must be periodically adjusted to keep it in synch with the solar year.

) after all, god's words to zedekiah (the last judean king) are usually quoted to support the idea that the gentile times began when that king lost his crown and the kingdom authority would be held in abeyance until "he comes whose right it is" - understood to be christ jesus at the parousia.

JosephMalik

Enquirer,

Are you associated with the Church of God Faith of Abraham?

I am not familiar with all their views but on the Kingdom and our Lord's return to earth they seem to have it right. No one will go to a place called heaven that exists somewhere in the universe in a body that is not human. That never was God's plan for mankind. What our Lord demonstrated to us is that a human body can become immortal just like His sacrificial one.

Joseph

25

Gentile Times - When did they end?

by Justin in

recently a poster commented that pastor russell may have clapped his hands two days too soon because the gentile tiems were not supposed to end until october 4/5, 1914. i guess october 4/5 is the date now given (though i haven't seen it in print, being unfamiliar with the newer publications), whereas russell was satisfied to have passed october 1.. one would assume that, as the downfall of the judean kingdom (supposedly in 607 bce) was the beginning of the gentile times, that whenever they ended in 1914 would be the date that would correspond to the overthrow in 607 bce.

(it would, given all the society's presuppositions, be difficult to come up with an exact date, as the hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar and must be periodically adjusted to keep it in synch with the solar year.

) after all, god's words to zedekiah (the last judean king) are usually quoted to support the idea that the gentile times began when that king lost his crown and the kingdom authority would be held in abeyance until "he comes whose right it is" - understood to be christ jesus at the parousia.

JosephMalik

Shotgun,

The problem with using 70CE as the fulfillment is that you are mixing a symbolic figure in Daniel with a literal Jerusalem. And our Lord did not return at that time which is the most important part of this prophecy. Events only seemed to fit the text but the prophecy in Daniel ends when Daniel stands up and those asleep in the ground awake. Such use of Daniel's prophecy actually prevents any application to the Romans in their day and 70CE in particular.

Joseph.

25

Gentile Times - When did they end?

by Justin in

recently a poster commented that pastor russell may have clapped his hands two days too soon because the gentile tiems were not supposed to end until october 4/5, 1914. i guess october 4/5 is the date now given (though i haven't seen it in print, being unfamiliar with the newer publications), whereas russell was satisfied to have passed october 1.. one would assume that, as the downfall of the judean kingdom (supposedly in 607 bce) was the beginning of the gentile times, that whenever they ended in 1914 would be the date that would correspond to the overthrow in 607 bce.

(it would, given all the society's presuppositions, be difficult to come up with an exact date, as the hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar and must be periodically adjusted to keep it in synch with the solar year.

) after all, god's words to zedekiah (the last judean king) are usually quoted to support the idea that the gentile times began when that king lost his crown and the kingdom authority would be held in abeyance until "he comes whose right it is" - understood to be christ jesus at the parousia.

JosephMalik

Justin,

What is it that makes so many believe that the Gentile times has something to do with the seven times of Daniel?s fulfilled prophecy regarding Nebuchadnezzar? Russell?s abuse of this prophecy is simply another example of the errors he was teaching at the time. Just how do you re-open a fulfilled prophecy anyway? And how if you do re-open it do you apply it to someone or something else? It would take an entirely new prophecy that does not exist in scripture to do this.

If anyone wants to know about the Gentile times they should look in the texts where this expression appears. In other words we should find the answer in Luke where such words appear and Matt and Mark who also discussed such times. The answer to when such times began and end is contained in Luke and the parallel comments found in Matt and Mark. Common sense itself should tell us that such Gentile Times have not yet ended. That much we can see for ourselves.

By putting the material in Matt, Mark and Luke side by side we can easily see that such Gentile Times began with sin, in the days of Adam and Eve at the beginning or our creation and end with our Lord?s return to this earth. It is that simple. There is no such thing as 2520 days that become years and then count from 607 or some other year and all that. The WT view is pure fiction and they have no truth on this matter. It is during such Gentile times that the wheat and weeds grow and/or the sheep and goats multiply and develop. The Gentile times are rooted in such prophecies by our Lord. They are simpy another way of expressing:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Joseph

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

Paduan,

So you added the word Spirit and did not bother to mention it eh? Ok but I do not have the time for such games. Each text must be understood in its own setting. Simply bringing up texts where this word is used does not help due to the complex use of this term in scripture. You will find such use amply covered in Beyond Trinitarianism found on my web page.

Joseph

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

The verse above is not simply "a bible verse that contains certain words" - it is a teaching (in context) about who is to be followed and looked to - delivered by Jesus.

Paduan,

If this is a teaching delivered by Jesus as you claim then why did our Lord not teach this exact same thing (with the word (spirit) included) in all translations of his words in the Bible? Why is it a teaching that appears only in your Bible version? Look at a few other translations and explain to us why they are wrong and you are right?

Matt 23:8 (AV) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

NIVUS 8 "But you are not to be called ?Rabbi,? for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ?father,? for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called ?teacher,? for you have one Teacher, the Christ.

NAS95 .8 "But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

And how do you arrive at a context that describes and even proves the Nature of God as in the Trinity Doctrine when our deeds, honor or place in the faith is under discussion?

Joseph

117

Was Jesus the first creation of God ?

by enquirer in

i am discussing this subject with a friend who believes this and who uses the passage in col 1 vs.15-17 as 'proof'.

he also uses john 8 v 58. it is of course a question of greek interpretation.

is there anyone out there who is a reliable greek scholar who could verify what these verses really say?

JosephMalik

you will not find a single verse in the entire bible which, in context, is about teaching the trinity to anyone

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But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher (the Spirit) , and you are all brethren.

And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.

Paduan,

Nice verse but no trinity is taught by it. Now if you would like to break it down and explain it point by point and show us that it teaches the Trinity Doctrine somehow then perhaps there would be something to discuss, but as it stands, you have not proven your point except for the fact that the Bible contains verses that use words such as spirit, Father and Christ. Do not forget that the Christ stands for the human master that will rule over us in the Kingdom here on earth.

Joseph