Posts by JosephMalik

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

Hellrider, You should know what everyone else already knows in that Doctrine Rules not Grammar. Translators say what they want not what the text says or is trying to teach. This is the real world we must face not the fictional one in which reason and truth prevails. Now reason can prevail but it is up to each one of us to do this for ourselves not such translators, scholars or grammatical analysts. You seem to think the text was written with precision and protected by God in this way? That is your argument but anyone should be able to see that God did not protect the text in this way. You see regardless of how it was written, it was not copied with precision much less translated thus. There are many variations, additions or versions some of which are difficult to resolve. The Cannon itself is a best guess. The protection is somewhere else and is not compromised by such alteration or those responsible for them. Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

He clearly isn't just saying that "I was around before Abraham", as if he were merely ancient of days. He uses a different tense.

Little Toe,

What good are grammar arguments in proving a something like this? We have grammatical rules today and may think that similar rules existed then but did they? And were such authors schooled in such rules? Further has anyone ever broken a grammatical rule to emphasize a point? Like a slap in the face this gets your attention quick. And are we to believe that Jesus did not answer the question put to him? After all John starts out his Gospel with this very information in his first verse. Is it now to be concealed or never used again? How did John know about it then? Could it not be from such comments?

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

The writers of the NT, the Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, etc. show an acquaintance not only with the Greek OT but also with intertestamental books that circulated during the period. That would constitute evidence that they were in contact with the textual tradition of the LXX, the pre-Theodotionic text, and other versions/writings, and that such texts circulated. No?

Leolaia,

No!. That some spoke Greek and may have translated some texts into Greek is not what we are talking about here. Does this mean that the LXX as we now know it existed at such a time? And further did this influence John in some way and did John even know about any such documents? If this cannot be determined then how could the existence of such documents or any documents for that matter be used as proof for such dependence or influence? Despite claims that such a version existed several hundred years BC there are other claims that they did not and evidence is given to show that this was all based upon fables. Just Google “LXX version” and see for yourself. http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/LXXJophus.html is a good place to start.

Leolaia: Like alphabetic acrostics??? I don't have a clue what is meant here....

An acrostic is a scroll where the first word of a sentence or paragraph is spelled out and all the rest of the words contain only their first letter, the identity of such a word added and annunciated from memory. This is what was used in the Temple as complete scrolls were too rare and fragile. And they were in Hebrew from the photocopies that I have seen in my biblical references. This explains: John 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. 15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

This is not to say he did not use other versions as well or the Hebrew (cf. John 13:18 which is enough different from the LXX to represent a free translation, a different version, or a free adaptation of the LXX), but such use does not mean that the LXX wasn't a source either.

Leolia,

And does this mean that such interpretation of “ego eimi” is somehow dependent upon such use? No, as each verse can be interpreted based upon its own context and such OT texts do not alter John’s use of ego eimi. This dependency is all guesswork anyway of course as most texts of the day were Acrostics and few if any texts in any form were available outside of the Temple or Synagogue. We may know what such texts say today but we do not know if John actually saw one do we? You of course are aware of the arguments that such an LXX version did not even exist until the third century or even later? One can simply Google this up and see for themselves. The point I have made is that John did not allude to the Supreme Being anywhere in his work by using the expression “I am.” All one has to do is punch in “I am” in their Online Bible search engines and see how John really used this common term throughout his work. It is as simple as that.

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

Leolaia,

John 1:23 and Isaiah 40:3 show only a similarity not a dependence. If they were exact then perhaps a dependence could be established, but they are not. No one would expect a radical difference in such texts even if was rendered or translated directly from the Hebrew by John. What such differences really show is that this was more probably a paraphrase or summation of this text from whatever unknown source it was derived and not a dependence on the LXX version of it.

Of what value is word matching of Isaiah 43:10 and John 8:24,28 or John 13:19. None other than to demonstrate that such a common expression can also be found in such translations from Hebrew. You see John 8:24, 28 is pointing to that great secret that even the apostles were not to disclose which was that He was the Christ, the Messiah that they all were looking forward to. The verses clearly do not identify this “I am” as the Father as in Isaiah but to someone obedient to such a Father. Someone in fact that was sent by this Father that came in from a non-human source available to this Father for such a mission. John 1:1 demonstrated this right off the bat in his introduction calling this non-human the WORD (not the Son). And John 8:58 simply verifies this fact as it points to time and history not to the LXX for the way it is used in that text. John therefore maintained this theme in his work. Leolaia: John ; it uses this phrase twice as much as all the other gospels combined,
John also filled in huge amounts of data not present in the other Gospels. Most of his work consisted of such fills. He writings demonstrate a familiarity with the other Gospels and he wrote at a spiritual level more like that of Paul who also had visions of Jesus. So John was different, unique yes, but this does not prove your point nor does it demonstrate special use highly dependent upon the LXX? No! The texts speak for themselves in this matter and ego eimi is nothing more than a common expression that is not dependent upon other texts for clarification. Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

1) The gospel of John was dependent on the Greek LXX, not the Hebrew OT. Thus the use of ego eimi in the LXX is quite relevant to appreciating its use in John.

Leolaia,

What? How do you know? Ego eimi is a simple common Greek phrase that has nothing to do with the LXX and that is the way John used it in his Gospel. For example: Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Joh 18:8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

Who then is this Ego eimi in such texts written by John? Why Jesus of Nazareth as John wrote of course. They were fearful of this Jesus as they knew or heard of him that he performed miracles and many powerful works but they got over that and arrested this Jesus of Nazareth. As for scholars they do not know the answers, so I prefer to stay with the texts.

Hellrider, Are you sure Jesus didn`t mean to "hint" to the name of God when uttering those words?
The name of God is not ego eimi. The name of God is YHWH. There simly is no substance in any of your speculations.

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

it has theological significance as most scholars recognize.

Leolaia,

All scripture has theological significance naturally. But just what that significance is becomes the real question that must be answered. Actually the words “ego eimi” do not appear in OT texts. This is a translation from the Hebrew verses after all as is the Septuagint. And such use in historical accounts does not force identity so as to make such use in a Hebrew text prove the identity of someone using them in a Greek texts does it? If so how? And scholars if we can call them that do not all agree so their opinions are not facts or real proof of anything. The responsibility for what we believe and teach must of course rest with ourselves. It is on our shoulders and not dependent upon the opinions of scholars.

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

Even Matthew has Jesus preaching the "Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke renders it the "Kingdom of God." Well, which is it? Which word did Jesus use? Did he say heaven or god?

Cygnus,

Just another example that we must understand what is being taught contextually and not depend on the actual words used for proof. In such texts we can see that our Lord’s message was not always quoted exactly by the authors of scripture. Here and in some other very important texts His words were interpreted, sometimes changed dramatically for the audience to which such message was being given. And the very existence of Jesus as both the human being and the non-human Word becomes not only historically relevant but a seamless reality with a simply Greek expression such as “I am.”

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

So saying "I am" is no less a claim of deity, than saying "I am the Being". I would think...but correct me if I`m wrong, I`m no expert.

Hellrider,

What makes you think that saying “I am” has anything to do with Deity in the first place? And what is Diety. Does it mean Supreme Being or simply a nonhuman of importance or something such? What evidence do you offer for such a conclusion?

And why does everyone ignore the question and context for why such a statement was uttered? It had nothing to do with a Hebrew text written thousands of years earlier in the book of the Law. So why are such scripture matches made and do they prove anything? If so how?

Scripture matching, word matching, and such are guesses not facts or proof in and of themselves. Take the word “world” for example. Do you think “planet” or “humanity?” Or the word “all.” Do you think “everything” or only that what is being discussed specifically in the text? So it is not scripture that is at fault for the many misconceptions regarding it like the Trinity. We have to take the blame for such misconception and not continue to believe such things simply because so many others do.

Joseph

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

JosephMalik

Trinity? False

Defd.

Is Jesus ALMIGHTY God? Yes, and he is our God, Mighty God, our Creator and all that but this type of questioning proves nothing. Why? Because God is a relegated position. Anyone in authority can be God to anyone else especially if the Supreme Being (also called God) selects you for that function. Moses was such as were the Kings of Israel.

Jesus is NOT the Supreme Being.

Jesus was authorized by the Supreme Being to be God to man and as such to create man, redeem mankind and judge mankind.

You see this word God identifies no one. Its use is contextual and it is remarkable how poorly its use is grasped. Since most cannot separate specific use when it applies to the Supreme Being and relative use when it applies to others authorized to be such the trinity argument goes on and on without resolution.

Joseph