Posts by JosephMalik

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Lol. Isn't it exactly what you are doing? Does putting the dictionaries away when you don't like what you find in them make it any better?

Narkissos,

No! Dictionaries and word matches do not tell the whole story. The truth is in the reality of what took place. We can get this in other ways. To get around this you say:

I didn't quote any scholarly authority, I gave you a list of references illustrating how the same book uses the same verb in a similar context (the dead). That means homework -- the same kind which has been done upstream of the dictionaries you lightly dismiss.

So you found another case where dead bodies came out of the rocks? No! Then you did not find similar context as you claim. What you found is other uses for such words in other texts. This is not a solution but a problem because there are such uses. You may even choose to reject other uses not documented. But translators choose other words like "arise" or "raised" with no problem for the text under discussion. The word resurrection was not used for the text in question. It was only used for Jesus and His resurrection. There is no burden of proof on my end, it is still yours. This kind of homework does not trump what has already been established here as the truth. So you go after Paul as if you know better than he does. Perhaps Jesus appointed you personally as well? To avoid the obvious then you say:

Check 2 Kings 13:20f (which may well lie somewhere in the background of the Matthean story).

Well I already knew about that account. It states: 20 And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year. 21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

This took place at a time when the LORD was dealing with Israel not Jesus. Now did such Saints as we are discussing touch the bones of Jesus so as to be revived? No! So why bring it up? It only goes to show that some will say anything no matter what. This is something I also want the readers to notice. It was a useless attempt to sway the audience and not a truthful one at that. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. But Jesus was dead for the three days and could not have raise these Saints as already discussed. This is the reality you failed to overcome.

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Narkissos,

Once again this is admittedly your opinion. Is it a poor choice of words or a better understanding of their proper use? It tickles me when someone in modern times thinks they know more about how such words may be used. Somehow they know better than the person that lived, breathed, spoke, witnessed and wrote in the language at the time. Even street talk today uses words differently than schooled individuals and we may not find such definitions in the dictionary. Proper use does matter as I have stated many times before. Dictionaries do not always work and may need updating. Everyone keeps ignoring the truth right in front of their face and that is that Jesus was dead. They insist on making their own doctrine by insisting that they understand such words and their use better when verses and doctrine already clearly established flatly teach otherwise. But that is also something we need to consider when investigating this matter. So now you know the rest of the story.

Joseph

PS. What Greber or the WT teach does not matter to me. If for some reason they get close to the truth so what? We are working with the text and I stay with what is written in it.

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Tula,

Jews had sacred terms for their dead. Matthew used Saints but Hebrews used Angels for their dead prophets (Heb 1:1). So we read: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And we also have: 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Such Angels were also holy ones or Saints as Matthew put it. No smoking gun here.

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Tula,

Christ was dead. He could not raise anyone back to life when this earthquake occurred. This is why I can say with certainty that the dead were not brought back to life as stated but simply raised. The event had no further repercussions as proof. No sciptures saying God raised them either. When Christ comes again to raise the dead there will be a resurrection but to immortal human life not the mortal life Lazarus and others had. So Paul who also raised the dead later in time taught that the resurrection had not occurred. He resurrected mortal humans but did not count that as the resurrection of the dead. This will only take place when Christ returns at a future time.

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

What if the holy ones received a resurrection to life once Christ gave his life for them.

Writetoknow,

What if they did not? Then the meaning of the Greek words used here have another application we may have missed. And the Greek word common used for Resurrection (anastasis) was not used in these verses. Why then ignore other verses that refute such thinking and cause another problem?

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

MJ,

They would have been carried in for preparation and reburial. Everyone would then see them. This is not a problem.

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Tula,

I also messed up on this one. I did not notice it to be a parenthentical statement and that the reburial was after the resurrection so this took a bit longer than I thought. But the problems that Pilate had would be the same. Taking a good look as such texts is beneficial. I am glad you brought it to our attention. I also noticed something about arose and resurrection that needs checking. Perhaps another time.

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Tula,

That is just a play on words. The NIV is one of the few that translates "raised to life." The rest leave it up to the reader. Think of the event in real terms as if you were there. And the Saints could be recently buried not old disintegrated corpses. A priest would be considered a Saint by the Jews. They as a Nations were considered Angels also as were Egyptians that experienced the miracles in Egypt and left with them. Such words would apply to ordinary people as well since the Nations was chosen. You would need much more detail to come to your conclusions. Lacking that then picking the simple and more realistic interpretation makes more sense. We should not violate the texts already shown that prevent alive from being assumed and included in the text as well. We cannot alter such chronology because or an opinion. It is all about death and dead bodies. So I stay with what I know on this one.

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Leolaia, Your explanation supports what I have said. It answers the questions you posed. And Narkissos' implication that the grammar does not support this view is simply his opinion. The facts, the setting, the trip to Pilate to get the body all set the stage for it. It would be fitting for Matthew to add this information to Mark's gospel to explain why this happened that way. Just filling in he blanks as other Gospels have done. This is also the context in which it was given. Furthermore it is also a good demonstration of how words such as resurrection can be used. The Revelation demonstrates another stange use of this word. They are not so restricted as to mean only one thing and opinion does not change that. It is because of use such as this that false doctrines developed in the first place. We know that Christ was raised first, in the true sense of a resurrection. We do not have to guess that the grammar supports these bodies as having come to have life simply because they were resurrected from the rocks. Why insist on it?

Joseph

65

144,000 resurrected BEFORE Jesus rose?

by tula in

according to matthew 27:52-53.

(this occurred during the time when jesus was being crucified).

"and the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.".

JosephMalik

Tula,

Minus the water yes. And because of the brief span of time involved maybe a lot of rules were broken in the process.

Tula said: the placement and words of this verse seem out of sync. Jesus does not get buried until further in the chapter. It seems, if you follow the timeline according to placement of the scriptures, that this event occurred just after the moment that Jesus "gave up his spirit." According to scripture, the dead rose before christ was even buried.

Yes. But it is in sync with the earthquake. That is what caused the problem. These bodies had to be buried right away as well. There was a lot going on during those few hours to Sunset. Who knows? Maybe the distraction was enough for Pilate to let Joseph have the body as he requested. He had enough bodies to handle at this point.

Joseph