Posts by JosephMalik

32

Romans 8

by confused and lost in

i have just finished reading the book of romans and i have a question ?

a person cannot please god unless he is controlled by the spirit.

(rom 8:8,9) nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (rom 8:13) the next verse (v14) then tells us that all who are led by gods spirit are gods sons.in fact they are adopted as his children.however,according to the wts , these verses only apply to the annointed.so,my question is this.if only the annointed are led by gods spirit,whose spirit leads the "other sheep" ?

JosephMalik

I saw your thoughts about the potential for discrepancies between Paul and his scribes. I think this has too many assumptions to hurdle, and it opens the potential for people discarding the bits and pieces they don't like or agree with. It would also assume that the scribe at the time was unaware of Paul's teachings on a particular subject, and that they did not discuss the material before it was sent out.

Doug Mason,

No! No such assumptions need to be put forward since the use of or failure to use the definite article in this discussion does not change anything for the Romans to which this letter was written. They were Roman Jews now converted to Christianity and still keeping "THE Law" (Pentateuch or the Hebrew Scriptures) a thought which you keep rejecting and you own writings keep showing this to be the case as well in that this was the problem Paul was addressing and the reason why Paul had to keep emphasizing Righteousness from God, apart from law as you have shown in your work. The law was their life, they were raised in it. The law was automatically a part of the Faith for them and as a result they were not heeding our Lord’s cry to be "born again." Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. In fact most of the letters in the NT were devoted to curing this problem. So while you are correct in stating "Paul immediately reaffirms his position that righteousness is wholly and completely dependent on faith" his reasons for doing so was their adherence to this law that they continued to support. Just as your own work is showing where you say: "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. (Romans 3:9)In view of this, Paul argues at Romans 3:20 that no one will be declared righteous by observing "the" law. He said this because they were still doing it. There also was a battle with the word "Law" that the SDA’s I knew had. They insisted in keeping some of this Law like the 10 commandments and letting ceremonial observances go by the wayside. Therefore if this was about all of it then it would be a problem for this theology drummed into them. Righteousness apart from the Law covenant is indeed our freedom in the Faith and this applies to all of it like the 10 commandments and not just bits and pieces of the rest. We use it to learn and understand how it is we came to be and gain insight into what God expects from us, but obedience to it no longer determines "sin" and how we are forgiven for it. How we treat others now is the detrmining factor. That is in a nutshell Paul’s argument as well.

Joseph

32

Romans 8

by confused and lost in

i have just finished reading the book of romans and i have a question ?

a person cannot please god unless he is controlled by the spirit.

(rom 8:8,9) nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (rom 8:13) the next verse (v14) then tells us that all who are led by gods spirit are gods sons.in fact they are adopted as his children.however,according to the wts , these verses only apply to the annointed.so,my question is this.if only the annointed are led by gods spirit,whose spirit leads the "other sheep" ?

JosephMalik

Romans 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

Doug Mason,

There is another reason why the definite article is not always present in the text where we feel it should be. It is not like Paul was writing this letter himself and taking care that the grammar precisely reflected what he meant. Tertius wrote this letter for him as shown above. And when Paul used words such as Law and Tertius heard him say it, would he automatically pen "the Law"? Did Tertius interpret what Paul was saying and maintain grammatical precision or did he simply write down what he literally heard Paul say? So grammar is not the benchmark that many make of it. We have to consider also the history, the problems being resolved and other factors that tell us what was really meant by a text.

Joseph

32

Romans 8

by confused and lost in

i have just finished reading the book of romans and i have a question ?

a person cannot please god unless he is controlled by the spirit.

(rom 8:8,9) nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (rom 8:13) the next verse (v14) then tells us that all who are led by gods spirit are gods sons.in fact they are adopted as his children.however,according to the wts , these verses only apply to the annointed.so,my question is this.if only the annointed are led by gods spirit,whose spirit leads the "other sheep" ?

JosephMalik

In the passage at Romans 4:13, the word "law" does not appear with the article. This is not an accident, since Paul is here contrasting those who thought God required obedience before a man would be accounted righteous, as against his own his position that a man is accounted righteous solely on the basis of his faith in Jesus Christ. No works ("law"), no obedience is required to be adjudged sinless in God’s sight.

Doug Mason,

I know this is your view but this is not what Paul is talking about. The use of the definite article is not proof as you keep insisting. It would be nice if it was present but even this would not settle the issue. Such use is not mandatory like the arguments on John 1:1. The word itself can be used in many other ways as you show and context determines what is meant not simply this definite article. Too much is made of it in such cases. What is Paul talking about here in Romans? And not just here but in all of Romans? Circumcision the tribes of Israel and the Law of Moses! And not just circumcision for Jewish believers mind you but circumcision for Gentile believers as well as a sign that they also obey this law. There was a separation between them and Paul was attempting to heal it. Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. This is not about obedience for such Jewish believers but about lineage in one of their tribes and a slap in their face for rejecting such Gentiles who could not transgress as they could. Then there is the grafting covered by another poster to show what the overall purpose of this discussion was all about. Yes, Paul talks about Abraham and faith and how all this developed because it was all part of the story found in Moses of how this faith came into existence. He summed up such writings of Moses and applied them. Why? To show something was more important than this Law this lineage they cherished. And yes obedience is required to be adjudged sinless in God’s sight but the Law no longer served this purpose and these Jews these Christians in Rome were still keeping it. That is what this letter tried to correct. Like the trip to Jerusalem which failed to correct this and many other attempts like this in other letters, it would finally take something as powerful as Hebrews and the conversion of James to finally settle the matter as he steadfastly kept this law in force not only for such Jews but for some of the apostles like Peter and John as well.

Joseph

32

Romans 8

by confused and lost in

i have just finished reading the book of romans and i have a question ?

a person cannot please god unless he is controlled by the spirit.

(rom 8:8,9) nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (rom 8:13) the next verse (v14) then tells us that all who are led by gods spirit are gods sons.in fact they are adopted as his children.however,according to the wts , these verses only apply to the annointed.so,my question is this.if only the annointed are led by gods spirit,whose spirit leads the "other sheep" ?

JosephMalik

Paul is not speaking about "THE Law" (Pentateuch or the Hebrew Scriptures). The word "law" (nomos) does NOT have the definite article ("the"). Paul is comparing "works of obedience" against "faith".

Doug Mason,

Sure it was as this is the context of Romans where Paul also said:

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) . . . 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

His use of circumcision in chapter 4 was just one of the ways that he made reference to this Law as it was the most visible physical indicator of their obedience to it and was being forced upon such Gentiles. Context determines what is meant NOT use of the definite article as if it’s use was mandatory and proof. It is this struggle with keeping the Law between Jewish and Gentile believers that filled most of Paul’s letters. And it was not simple "works of obedience" that James concerned himself with when he said to Paul:

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing,

So Paul would single out circumcision to such Jews and Gentiles in Rome to bring this out to them. Romans is filled with such examples and sets the context for it as is Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Joseph

32

Romans 8

by confused and lost in

i have just finished reading the book of romans and i have a question ?

a person cannot please god unless he is controlled by the spirit.

(rom 8:8,9) nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (rom 8:13) the next verse (v14) then tells us that all who are led by gods spirit are gods sons.in fact they are adopted as his children.however,according to the wts , these verses only apply to the annointed.so,my question is this.if only the annointed are led by gods spirit,whose spirit leads the "other sheep" ?

JosephMalik

I have just finished reading the book of Romans and I have a question ? A person cannot please God unless he is controlled by the spirit.(Rom 8:8,9) Nor can he put to death the misdeeds of the body except by the spirit (Rom 8:13)

Confused and lost,

I have been harping on this for some time but it does not seem to sink in. Who are these Romans Paul is addressing? Jews who believed in Christ but were still keeping the Law for salvation. They cannot please God unless they are controlled by the spirit which means what? The OT scriptures that teach some day God will provide a replacement for the old Law covenant with a new and better covenant for salvation. Eventually the book of Hebrews would bring such verses out and apply them point blank. The same thing goes for the misdeeds of the body which were serviced by the animal sacrifices and other provisions of this Law. It would no longer serve this purpose and such misdeeds would now be covered by the blood of Christ. This was the spirit in which they should now live.

You bring out: The next verse (v14) then tells us that ALL who are led by Gods spirit are Gods sons. In fact they are adopted as his children.

Peter made the same arguments in his letters regarding this sacrifice. There is no such thing as a limit on how many can be let by God’s spirit. They just want to restrict this number to control and enslave you and others to serve them. In reality they ignore everyone else trying to do this "anointed" thing as they call it and will not listen to them. They put themselves above all such spirit.

You said: So, my question is this. If only the anointed are led by Gods spirit, whose spirit leads the "other sheep"? If in fact ALL Christians are led by Gods spirit then ALL Christians are Gods sons so then ALL Christians are co-heirs with Christ. This makes the "144,000" kind of redundant.

True. However the number 144,000 is simply a way to symbolize this core of believers who will assist Christ is His kingdom administration. This is because Christ chooses those who belongs to Him and not us. Like the apostles for instance: John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. We may want to be such but not everyone claiming to be Christian really is. Some are evil slaves and will be identified as such when He returns. So this number 144,000 eliminates the faithful from the evil ones. Such evil ones will face judgment using other criteria established for the judgment of the rest of the world to which they will be relegated. This will be based on their behavior and what they really were as human beings not their religious beliefs.

You said: Also, since John in 1John 3 : 10 makes a distinction between the "children of God" and "the children of the devil" does this mean that because the "other sheep" are not adopted as Gods children they must of necessity be children of the devil, since there are only 2 classes of children mentioned by John and also by Jesus (John 8:42 - 47)

You should not confuse "other sheep" with "sheep." The other sheep are non-Jews that share in this same covenant with the chosen Jews while sheep is used for all mankind in general from which the kingdom will also draw to make up its final population. They will be assigned to the heirs to bring them to the knowledge and justification they already have.

By the time John wrote this struggle had matured to the point that Christians were trying to kill Christians over Law. And more complex teaching had crept into the faith by Jewish and Gentile believers both as detailed also in 1 Cor. So John could now speak of children of the devil more openly and give specific examples of how to identify them the way Paul did. This is simply another way to show that a faithful and evil slave existed in the faith and we should be aware of it. This was also visible among the Jews to whom Jesus ministered.

Joseph

P.S. If you read Romans very carefully you will be able to identify by the wording and context where Paul is addressing the Jewish Christians and where he is addressing the Gentile ones in Rome.

JM

19

Why is 537BCE important?

by whereami in

in very layman's terms can some help me why this date is important to the jw 607 theory?

i'm trying to show my wife that the wts is wrong on the 607 date.

i told her that no respected scholar agrees with that date.

JosephMalik

Well JosephMalik, of the 'throw the baby out with the water' class, if most of what the JW's teach is trash then where does that leave the rest of the churches, who teach even worse trash with their trinity nonsense, completely unscriptural immortal soul bollox, and their hellfire crap. They are all teaching trash, the lot of them, but the JW's have got some big things right.

mustobey, Where are the rest of the churches? In the same group with the JW's of course. That is why the scriptures identify an evil slave existing with and pretending to be the faithful slave. What big things do the JW's have right? Some go to heaven? Wrong. Do not partake if you are not one of their 144000? Wrong. House to house preaching? Wrong. We are the governing body? Wrong. Do not take a blood transfusion? Wrong. No trinity? Yes but even here they have important facts wrong and it is not the big or most important thing they keep saying it is. Christ did not raise himself in the flesh and does not still retain his humanity? Wrong again and they are antichrist for doing so. Women are not equal in the faith to men? Wrong. The scriptures are telling us to preach Christ and they keep preaching Jehovah. They are wrong again on such a simple and fundamental thought. They do not even know the correct Jewish Passover date on which our Lord died. And no one notices? Are they all stupid? And it goes on and on like this to an incredible extent too long to list. They place themselves inside the text, teaching their founders had a part in fulfilling it? Wrong. 1914? Wrong. WT doctrine is killing people unnecessarily. True! Does this matter to you? It is a big mess and very few even notice. And you may not have noticed but other churches share the views you seem to cherish and are not making the mistakes that the WT is making. Why not give them the credit they deserve? Joseph P.S. The WT has NEVER preached this good news of the Kingdom. Why? Because they do not know what it is, who and how we get there and why. Their doctrine regarding this kingdom is? Yes some guessed it, WRONG. One of the really big ones I would say. JM

16

What kind of receiver should I get? Stereo or 7.1 Channel?

by JK666 in

jw
friends

i am mostly into music (loud), but i do listen to video over it.

my old receiver just bought the farm, and currently i only have two speakers.

do you techno-geeks have any suggestions?.

JosephMalik

jK666,

Something like a Pioneer VSX-816 should do it. It is only an entry level system but works really well and has on screen displays. Has digital and optical inputs. Switches both video and audio. It is a 7.1 system but you do not have to use all the amps. 100 watts per channel. It is miles ahead of any older stereo system and not expensive for so many features. It also comes with a mic and tone generator that tunes up the whole system automatically. Features multiple decoder formats and Dolby ProLogic II. Got mine on sale at Best Buy.

Joseph

41

If Adam did not sin, would humans have lived forever on earth?

by jwfacts in

the new testament talks consistently of a heavenly hope, not an earthly one and the idea that humans are to live forever on earth is not supported scripturally at all.. however, what would have happened if adam and eve had not sinned.

the watchtower likes to make the point that it is only sin that caused adam and eve to die.

romans 5:12 that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.. what do christians believe regarding this scripture?

JosephMalik

the Adam/Eve story doesn't say they would live forever

Maybe its just that; a story.

To both,

Well story or not it does say they would live forever. It was for this reason they they were cast out.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Joseph

41

If Adam did not sin, would humans have lived forever on earth?

by jwfacts in

the new testament talks consistently of a heavenly hope, not an earthly one and the idea that humans are to live forever on earth is not supported scripturally at all.. however, what would have happened if adam and eve had not sinned.

the watchtower likes to make the point that it is only sin that caused adam and eve to die.

romans 5:12 that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.. what do christians believe regarding this scripture?

JosephMalik

Well you know...a perfect person would not fall out of a tree or off a mountain. They wouldn't make that mistake.

Bonnie_Clyde,

And you know that how? We are not even talking about a perfect person at such a time but an immortal person. But do you have proof that even such an immortal person cannot fall out of a tree and die? Where? The faith had provisions already established in scripture such as the laying on of hands and the ability to raise the dead. A better way to think about something like this is the application of such capabliities.

Joseph

41

If Adam did not sin, would humans have lived forever on earth?

by jwfacts in

the new testament talks consistently of a heavenly hope, not an earthly one and the idea that humans are to live forever on earth is not supported scripturally at all.. however, what would have happened if adam and eve had not sinned.

the watchtower likes to make the point that it is only sin that caused adam and eve to die.

romans 5:12 that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.. what do christians believe regarding this scripture?

JosephMalik

Why should we restrict ourselves to saying that the new government and new society have to be earthly? where does it say so in the bible?

quietlyleaving,

Ps 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Mt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

This is the theme of the entire Bible from start to finish. It will all happen here. This is the reason Christ was promised by the men in white robes to return here in the flesh just like He left. 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. It is the word heaven and how it was used that many have abused. 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. We await this new heavens and a new earth, on this planet not somewhere else we know nothing about.

Joseph