Posts by JosephMalik

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

Kenneson: But why do we have to conclude that Acts 12:15 is referring to a human rather than a guardian angel? Was it not a popular belief of the time that guardian angels were a kind of spiritual "double" of their charges?

Why not? Do angels knock on doors or do they simply appear from nowhere? Your examples demonstrated the latter. Use of messenger for angellos demonstrates this as well. Kenneson: 2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6 are both in agreement with 1 Cor. 6:3 No they do not. 2 Peter 2:4 is talking about the Jews that died in the wilderness not non-human beings as you suggest. Paul also discussed them in his work. It is similar also in Jude. Notice: 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Such verses in Jude are discussing human beings. Both before verse 5 and after. While most were Jews not everyone in that wilderness was Jewish as a vast company of Egyptians went out with them. 38 “And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.” Such too were angels that kept not their first estate. Which first estate? Why the Egypt under discussion here of course. So this makes perfect sense as all those involved in this rebellion are discussed here in Jude. What is your point Kenneson? Do you have information to the contrary? If so please provide it in more detail.

Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

Kenneson:
Was John the Baptist human or non-human? Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. How is it that John is called my angel in this verse. Just because translators used messenger here does not alter this fact. All such examples must be taken into consideration if the use of this term is to be understood.
Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

Kenneson: Do you, therefore, believe in non-human heavenly messengers called angels?

Yes. Kenneson: If you do, were they created and by whom? It is not known how such non-human beings came into existence. This is not discussed in scripture in detail. Creation may even be the wrong word to use to describe them. As to whom, they belong to. The answer is YHWH. Kenneson: Was it human messengers that appear in the Gospels at Mt. 1:20; JM: No. Mt. 2:13, JM: No. 19? JM: No. Kenneson: Who is the angel in Lk. 1:11 JM: Non-human and Gabriel in verse 26? JM: Non-human. And so it goes. But if you think that this establishes a pattern of such use or a defensable position think again. 14 And when she knew Peter’s voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate. 15 And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel.

His angel they said, another human being, a messenger sent by Peter knocking on the door (compare to appearing on the inside). That is what they thought. This word, angel/messenger is a common Greek word that does not identify the nature of the individual itself. Again it is context that determines who or what is meant. It was also used by Jews as an endearing term for the prophets of old. Thus we have such extensive use of it in Hebrews. Kenneson: It seems to me that the belief in heavenly beings called angels runs through the entire Bible. As does such use of human beings especially in the world to come. Paul was foremost in using the word in that way.
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels ? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

Moses, rather than being worshipped, was grumbled about - that is the context in the OT.

LT:

We see only what we want to see don’t we? For thousands of years Moses was held in high regard to the point where it was said of him:

Ac 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Ac 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

And even in the Revelation we have:

Re 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Somebody changed their minds somewhere along the line did they not?

LT: I believe Thomas, as well as declaring Jesus Lordship over him, was also confessing his godship. He was worshipping him as the one who had done as he promised, and risen from the dead, the one who had all power and authority, etc. Of course he was. But Thomas was not declaring that this Jesus was the Supreme Being or YHWH. John made this clear in John 1:1 discussed earlier. And this power, this authority was passed on to this Jesus by such YHWH. John knew where such authority came from for he said 5:26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.” Thus Jesus is Lord (not LORD) and he is the Messiah or Christ our God as stated by John in fact and function.

LT: This is the context and message of John, from start to finish - the deity of Christ as the very Son of God. Not merely a message-boy.

But not God in the context of the Supreme Being. Christ’s deity is manifest in both his human and non-human nature. I call it the hypostasis of Christ using the word hypostasis in its generic form. This quality is unique to him being born also of man and will be exercised fully when he returns here to this earth to rule as King. The deity of God is another matter entirely as its use deals with graven images and imposters. Deity is not identity and its use is not confined to a Supreme Being. Christians however are called Son(s) as well so how is this distinction so meaningful or what verse does it alter or doctrine does it affect? 1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

This is our hope, and our message as such disciples to proclaim. The rest is up to history as we wait on its fulfillment.

Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

LT, I described this relevance and the real problem is with individuals that cannot grasp such facts. Some see words apart from their context and use. I see words and their use both contextually and historically. LT: Besides, where was Moses ever worshipped? Worship was used of humans in OT days without violating texts that seem to prevent such worship. You need it spelled out in some text but the way Moses was treated should be enough. Yet worship was spelled out in some OT texts and it is to these that I refer. LT: Disputing the Trinity, in your argument, just weakens your case,

In your dreams! I will let the readers determine such things for themselves.

LT: What did Thomas mean by calling him this? How did he differ materially from the Father?

Thomas uses a double title - "My Lord and my God". This surely conveys more meaning than just authority?

I will let you answer first and offer your interpretation and proofs for all this. This way you will be commited and a proper comparison of alternate views can be made.

Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

Inquirer,

Moses and the Kings of Israel were also God to the people they governed. The term God identifies no one in particular but it does identify the function they perform. Used in the context of the Supreme Being there is but One God. But used in the context of someone of something that rules over us it can be used of men such as Jesus the human being standing before Thomas. No scriptural rule is violated by such use. It is not the term God but the context in which it is used that determines if we have violated the one God rule. And as you pointed out this context was identified and brought out in the text.

But take a closer look at this rule. Some texts state it like this:

Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

This is not simply God. It is the specific God called YHWH or LORD as it is translated here. This is the Supreme Being and while this YHWH can change such a rule later when it comes to His human Son this was not done for any Jews in the days of Moses.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Such angels would be resurrected humans brought into the Kingdom at some future time, and in this case it would specifically refer to the Jews or those messengers (angels) of old that served to propagate and preserve this message for us.

Even in such cases the word worship has many meanings of its own that would make such other use of the word worship difficult to discern. It would be difficult to understand why anyone so resurrected would not have deep respect and appreciation for such a firstbegotten and thus worship him for such reasons. This would be not as the God YHWH or some other God of similar authority but as His chosen representative much as Moses was in times past or as a Hebrew King according to this passage in Hebrews.

Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

What makes God "God"?

LT,

It is not the three “O” or the way they are understood by most today. What makes God “God” is simply the fact that He has authority over our very lives. That is essentially what God means.

I did not see you support your claims regarding Colossians. You had an interpretation before so then how did you arrive at it?

Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

You believe that Satan made the earth, plants and animals, LT, No. YHWH made the earth alone. As for plants and animals such precise detail is not provided in scripture. LT: Aren't you side-stepping Col.1:16 which speaks of him creating the things in the heavens, too? The context goes beyond merely governments, here. The things in the heavens are the governmental structure that exists to maintain order upon this earth until the coming kingdom replaces them. The context clearly supports this despite your denial. If it goes beyond such government then prove it. Notice: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Heaven (ruling classes) Earth (those governed by such Heavens) broken down to be Thrones (human) dominions (human) principalities (human) powers (human) visible (such ruling from nearby) invisible (such ruling from far away as in Rome). All human things pertaining to this earth and its populations apart from the Church. Then this relationship is included in with the body or Church "that in all things he might have the preeminence." Where are the stars, the planets, the trees and all the rest? How do you arrive at such conclusions? LT: Besides, isn't creatorship again reserved to "God"? What makes God "God"? Are you saying that delegating such tasks makes some sort of difference? If so how? Of what use then were the many assistants that God had serving Him then? Are you basing your theology on such speculation or are you making this up as you go along? Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

How many times must this verse be discussed before it is understood? This is an introduction and sets the theme for John’s Gospel. It starts out by tracing the history of the non-human Word that was with God at the beginning of mankind’s or as John states it the worlds creation:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

At such a beginning the Word was commissioned to create humanity and be responsible for it as the God to such a world of humans. Those that understand this first use of the term God to be the Supreme Being would be correct, but this is determined by reason and context and not by the term God. The term God identifies no one in and by itself and is applied to others as well. This is also now true of the Word. This second use simply means someone in authority an Anointed one to be such as Moses or the Messiah for example. That the Word was now called God as such a time shows how such authority was passed to him by this Supreme Being that he was with. Nothing really earth shaking here since the very name of God which is far more significant and specific in scripture than the term God was passed to angelic and non angelic messengers such as the one in the burning bush to act in this Supreme Beings behalf just as if they were Him and in countless other texts in much the same way.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Not everything was made by him. John is only discussing all things pertaining to the world of humankind and the salvation of such a World that this Word would provide. Of this truth many were in darkness and continue to be in darkness and fail to comprehend it to this day. So John said of the Baptist: 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

But to those that do not grasp this fact that only humanity this specific World is under discussion or the World with all its complexity and governmental structure the apostle continues and says: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

No trees, plants or animals included just this specific world of humans and only those that qualify to become Sons of God. Who created the animals or at least some of them? Who do you think had authority over such animals and used them improperly?

Joseph

Link

215

Trinity- True or False

by defd in

20 years ago

i know from going door to door that people are generally divided as to who god is.

what are your thoughts?

is jesus almighty god?

20 years ago

JosephMalik 20 years ago

He is identified as uniquely the Son, and different from the angels, as per Hebrews 1 & 2, and the title "only-begotten Son". Different from what angels? Not non-human ones as most teach. It is the angels of the covenant under discussion in Hebrews. They were Jews of times past like the prophets and fathers introduced and described in verse 1. Now we know that this Son created the worlds (as the Word). Not only John but Hebrews and Colossians testifies to this fact. He is therefore the only-begotten human being to come into existence by means other than himself and thus identified as the only-begotten Son of God.

Joseph

Link