Posts by JosephMalik

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

BA,

Then, And, Also, the word has many meanings so you still do not get it. This word is also translation dependent. Have you checked any others? I did and you lose BA. This is not proof. It was sad really. You had nothing to offer anyway. It makes no difference in this case since it is another vision altogether and takes place at another time.

Joseph

PS. You said: Do you even know who the "woman" is? This is his church, those who make up his bride!

No not in this case. The woman is Eve. That is why Adam said: 20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. The seed is her seed. The prophecy was applied to her seed right from the beginning.

JM

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

These are the two points you have made that are extra-scriptural, that both take away from what is written and add to what is written.

BrotherApostate,

This just shows that you did not understood what I said. I explained the difference between the resurrection of the holy ones and the rest of the world. The revelation does not change history already revealed. It is a vision after all using words that go beyond the norm. Look again at the second argument. Your punctuation did not make verse 11 a new paragraph. And you base your argument on such punctuation making verses consecutive. But I explained this as well. The NIV however does make it a new paragraph as does many others. It is another vision entirely and not necessarily in chronological order with the one before it. You did not identify it as such as it would refute your argument. That is the kind of theology that I am bringing to the readers attention so that they can make sound decisions for themselves by paying attention to such detail. A careful reader with a good background would have noticed it for themselves. The texts I explained prior to it made this point and I did not have to depend upon it such support. But it is there for those wondering where such thinking may have come from and I agree with it.

Joseph

PS. you said: These are the offspring of those who survive Armageddon, there is no other (Scripturally proven) way for them to be anything else.

Sure their is. This is the kind of WT nonsense I refuted as well. The doctrine involved can also be stated like this: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; It is this seed of the woman that makes up the Nations not the few survivors (children) that are changed somehow at such a time.

JM

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

You JosephMalik are arrogant and think that your way of thinking is the only way, very closed minded to see other viewpoints!

SarahSmiles,

You would say that of Jesus as well I take it since He was critical of others that did not teach truth. If the challenge I have offered to others is not refuted then I have a perfect right to maintain the information offered to them. You think that is arrogant? This is not a problem for me as I know better. At least this is better then no recognition at all.

Joseph

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

Oompa,

I know what you mean. Perhaps that is why it was not given when our Lord trained His disciples and preached about this Kingdom to them. It was not needed and we should not be running to it for Doctrine. This was already well formed or established. Today many run to the Revelation and form all sorts of teachings that go contrary to what was already established as truth. This is where many of the errors come from. Like putting the cart before the horse.

Joseph

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

Can anyone explain why the WTS claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after Armageddon when to the contrary the book of Revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

SarahSmiles,

I cannot speak for the WT view but the Revelation is a series of Visions that are not necessarily in chronological order. Just like in Chapter 21 where we see the city coming down many times when we know there is only one city under discussion. It is not many cities crushing themselves when they come down but one city viewed over and over from different perspectives. This is also the way Chapter 20 was written.

Sarah: I can not explain why the WTBTS make their claim to the first resurrection are the 144,000.

The resurrection when it takes place will consist of both good and bad. As shown in Matt chapter 25:31 the sheep (taken from anyone that ever lived) are saved and this takes place at the beginning of the 1000 years when Christ descends not at the end as some teach. This sets the timing for the resurrection. We also learn this at: 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Does this mean that there are sheep that are or have done bad and yet raised? Yes! Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, (bad) unto the resurrection of damnation. And Paul put it this way: Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. So we are talking about one big event with mixed participants and it takes place at the beginning not at the end of Christ’s return as some teach. The damned, goats, those not found in the book of life do not get such an opportunity. They are rejected as goats right at the start as shown in Matt. Chapter 25. They would be treated as having sinned against the holy spirit and go into everlasting punishment. Also some sheep that are raised will fail the final test and be damned as well. So what is going on?

The millennium will be a time of training and testing. Everyone so resurrected or changed will be an immortal human being physically. Only the holy ones, the 144000 are already Justified which is also the goal of everyone else in the millennium. They have life in themselves as our Lord taught and are considered as having been resurrected spiritually, first so resurrected in fact over which second death has no authority. But such holy ones and the Nations are shown as together in the same place and at the same time in Chapter 20. Living together good or bad they have a common Jewish Father and are the Israel of God. The final test will eliminate those Nations as individuals that fail this opportunity to gain eternal life. By being identified as Gog or Magog, some will be shown for one reason or another to be enemies of the Faith. That is the vision we see in the Revelation. When it is all over the earth will be filled with holy ones and survivors as originally planned in the beginning and God could now say: And the evening and the morning were the seventh day.

Joseph

23

what is the "daily sacrifice"?

by tula in

.

JosephMalik

Tula,

A decent answer to your question should go something like this: Heb. 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. 15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. 16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. You should at least get this much from your question.

Joseph

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

Joseph Malik claims there is no "punctuation marks or explanations to separate these visions" but we're talking about a sequence of events in one chapter in the Bible, and to the contrary there is definitive "punctuation" that separates the millennium and Satan's last stand from JUDGMENT DAY. The best way to deal with this is to show everybody by quoting the few verses involved.

JC,

One chapter of what Bible you say?. The Bible has no chapters. The Chapters and verses we have today were added. And because of such chapter and verse divisions many errors resulted like this one. Just like the tribulation. It is explained in scripture but no one notices. They believe the WT like trash heaped upon them by others. Just like the story of the blind leading the blind.

Joseph

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

2)- Those who physically survive the Great Tribulation & Armageddon (and those born to them during the thousand years.).

BrotherApostate,

Those that survive the Great Tribulation is nearly everyone that ever lived since Adam that qualifies. We also see them symbolized as the Nations. The tribulation started then and is not just the few years just prior to Armageddon as some teach. And there will be no marriage or children born as the WT teaches. No verses for this shown but it can be refuted easily..

Joseph

45

Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn in

can anyone explain why the wts claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after armageddon when to the contrary the book of revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

that is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before armageddon.

let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

JosephMalik

Can anyone explain why the WTS claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after Armageddon when to the contrary the book of Revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

Greendawn,

Plainly for who? The book describes a series of visions that take place in parallel mostly during the 1000 years. And there were no punctuation marks or explanations to separate these visions. So if you had the paragraphs properly shown then the resurrection also shown after the Nations would simply be a recap to show how the Nations got to be in Rev. 20 in the first place. No one will simply walk in as the WT teaches. The only way for the Nations or anyone else like the holy ones to get in is to be resurrected or changed into an immortal human being. You remember the verse, flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom. This is true for everyone good or bad that makes it. Other accounts in scripture show that the resurrection takes place when Christ returns. They are the root texts that set the doctrine and timing for the resurrection. Basically it all takes place at the beginning during this last day, giving the holy ones time to be priest to them as shown elsewhere. The justification of such Nations will have to wait until after the final test. This justification is also symbolized as resurrection but then it is the Revelation after all. Be careful how such words are used in a vision. Get the doctrine straight outside of the book if you want to understand it when it is finally visualized.

Joseph

26

abomination of desolation

by tula in

.

so what does this mean to you?.

and how would you apply this to the future as a revelation?.

JosephMalik

As to the text under discussion, and especially the time connection14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

of the Jerusalem "great tribulation" and the "sign of the Son of Man," it is noteworthy that the typically Markan euthe ô s ("immediately") occurs in the extant text of Matthew (24:29), not in Mark!

Narkissos,

Such additions to the detail by a later version, especially one that may have been written after 70CE is quite normal. That generation, the generation of the abomination under discussion is the same one in both accounts which is not the generation of 70CE. The resurrection did not occur during the lifetime of either writer which is what they wanted to know and our Lord did answer their question. It supports the earlier version of Mark and verifies it’s accuracy in fact.

Narkissos said: It seems that the last redactional layers of Matthew, which did postpone the "end" sine die (cf. 28:18ff), did not cut out the traditions reflecting shorter-term eschatology (cf. the even more embarrassing 10:23).

I liked this comment. You put your trust in men that cannot think. Then it becomes proof for your views. But words like "I am with you" and "Israel" have a deeper meaning for the Faith under Christ as the proposed father of the human race. The only ones that should be embarrassed are the ones that offer such thoughts. You cannot get away from the fact that they wanted to know when the end would come. You cannot change time. This is simply another way to identify the resurrection. The word was not used but the reality of it was understood even as such a last day was understood by Martha. There was no resurrection in 70CE. The scholars were wrong. Too bad for them.

Joseph