Posts by Jr

44

WHEN THE FECAL MATTER HITS THE FAN

by You Know in

------------------- when the fecal matter hits the fan!

the book of malachi is addressed to the priests of israel after the time of judgment when the babylonians destroyed the nation.

but, in reality, the prophecy applies to the anointed priests of the christian era who are similarly in a legally binding covenant relationship with jehovah god.

Jr

Hi You Know:

The following are quotes from "MDS" posted back in
October 2001.

Quote # 1

"The Bible makes a number of serious "predictions"
about the future of mystery "Israel," ... whom I
propose to be Jehovah's Witnesses of our
time. (I realize that many will object to such an assumption...smile). However, in this treatise, it will be explained, exactly why this is so and why Jehovah's Witnesses are to be understood as mystery "Israel" of Bible prophecy.

"Still, I propose Bible prophecy speaks about God's
dealings with them, now and in the future. For example
it speaks of the coming fate of "Israel," how they
fare, in the future days ahead, because of being led
by wicked men, spiritual "rebels" against God...those
who will (in the days ahead) succumb to "smooth words"
of "apostasy" against God. -- Daniel 8:23 NIV; Daniel
11:32 NWT

Quote # 2

"Mystery "Israel," The Answer: Jehovah's Witnesses are
mystery "Israel," because primarily, they carry God's
Name upon themselves, as a spiritual nation or people.
Thus they have been permitted to enter a "Covenant" Relationship with Him, because of this. This could only have happened, unless God allowed it.

Quote # 3

"At present, because of bad leadership, the spiritual
nation is "acting wickedly against that Covenant."
(Let it be noted, there are other practices and
teachings of the nation of Jehovah's Witnesses which
also help us to identify them as mystery "Israel" of
our day that are NOT mentioned in this treatise.) --
Daniel 11:30

quote # 4

"...lovingly, Jehovah God has provided many, many
clues to assist his people during this time of "Great Distress," through Bible Prophecy. This is something we will have to admit, when we see these events
occur...Even those who scoff. -- Zechariah 12:7; Amos
3:7; Jeremiah 30:7; 1 John 4:8; Acts 13:40, 41

"Alas! For that day is a great one, so that there is
no other like it [the "Great Tribulation" upon
"Jacob"], and it is the time of distress for
Jacob [or "Israel"]. But he will be saved even out of
it." -- Jeremiah 30:7

Quote # 5

"Yes, mystery Israel "will be saved even out of it,"
... this "Great Tribulation" coming upon the spiritual
nation, for their many acts of "sin" and
"transgression" against God. The God of the "Holy
Covenant" that they VIOLATE continually...

Quote # 6

"...Jehovah's Witnesses, became...the spiritual nation
of "Israel" of Bible Prophecy. A people who would have
to endure severe discipline for open rebellion &
disobedience to God...being chased off their land,
their spiritual "inheritance." A people who would have
to be changed spiritually, from a "land of Decoration"
which falls off into "apostasy," to finally, a
"Mountain of Decoration," a spiritually elavated
plateau. A people who, after severe discipline from

God, would be granted the privilege of "dwelling in
the center [navel] of the earth." -- Daniel 8:13;
11:32, 41, 45; Isaiah 30:26; Jeremiah 23:19, 20; Micah
4:6,7; Ezekiel 37:23; 38:8-12

[originally posted by MDS]

So You Know, am I left to believe that you now,
actually agree with MDS and the "Report" people, and
agree with what they teach in the 6 points he
mentioned above?

If you are in agreement, then you must remember
this particular viewpoint does not originate with you,
but has been widely publicized. The above viewpoint
has been held by the "TWMC/Report" movement for well
over a decade now, with the book, "The Report"
copyrighted in 1994, and printed-published and
currently on the bookstands since 1995.

So, have you now just recently come around to
understand that Jehovah's Witnesses are in a Covenant Relationship with God, the people "leaving the holy covenant" and have thus, violated it? (Daniel 11:30) And have you come around to admitting that all of the hebrew prophecies of wickedness and "whoredom" of Jerusalem, is actually to be properly applied to JWs instead of Christendom? (Jer. 3:9) Also, have you now come to realize the "weight" of the sin of the UN/GB Fiasco and Daniel 8:13?

If you have, you are making real spiritual "progress",
as a bonifide "apostate" WITHIN Jehovah's
Organization.

But here is the real question: Finally, if all of the
above is true, then how do you explain how "us" filthy apostate-accusers have miraculously come into "possession" of this wondrous knowledge of God, BEFORE you sir, O Anointed One?

How do you explain that?

Here is the link where these comments were made:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum//thread.asp?id=11937

Jr.

11

October 7th

by Jr in

jw
friends

october 7th.

hmmm.

jr

Jr

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=11937&site=3

A qoute from this article MDS wrote: "Bible prophecy indicates that a major split or major break in the brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses, resulting in two factions of JWs, divided off from each other, but co-existing within the same worldwide congregational fold at the same time will occur. This division, which already exists, become MORE ACUTE AFTER, the pivotal date of October 7, 2001...the anniversary date of carrying the Name of God upon themselves as a spiritual nation for 70 YEARS!"

11

October 7th

by Jr in

jw
friends

october 7th.

hmmm.

jr

Jr

Hi all,
October 7th. Hmmm

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Hi James,

quote:
Since then Jehovah hasn’t changed His purpose. We are also living in a time, when the opportunity to belong BY SPIRIT to this ‘Israel of God’ is still given to all mankind, including natural Jews. That’s why I believe, Jehovah is fulfilling those prophecies from old in the Christian Congregation. Not due to presumption, or bearing ‘The Name’ as a 'label', or in an organization of men, but BY HIS SPIRIT, this ‘Spiritual Israel’ is all over the world, and we are unified not by the power of men, but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I agree. But, I believe what ties this group together is there faith in Jehovah. Like Abraham, we must have this faith to be pleasing to him. This, I beleive, is the common denominator, faith. Faith in Jehovah, the person, his will and purposes. Now, we can't have faith in Jehovah if we believe he is Jesus. We also can't have faith in Jehovah if we think he is a triune God. We can't have faith in Jehovah if we use idols to worship him. Would you agree? We must worship him in spirit and truth. "God is a spirit and those worshipping him must worship him in spirit and truth." - John4:24 What is truth? Truth is basic bible teachings solidly founded in the scriptures. We can't believe in hellfire either. We can't believe we are all going to heaven. These teachings clearly show we don't have a clue who Jehovah is. Or who the God of Abraham was. Job was man not associated with the Israelites, but he heard of Jehovah and worshiped him in spirit and in truth. It is not difficult to see truth in the bible if one is willing to learn it. So, I agree. I don't believe this "spiritual Israel" is man made. They are a people that have a common faith in Jehovah, a people Jehovah recognizes as Israel. It is an arrangement Jehovah prophesied about. He knew it would be like this. He knew his people would be unworthy of his name. Discipline is in store for them. Would you agree?

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Hi James,

quote:
perhaps, we're really beginning to see, the bible, and its parables, teachings, are not something that man, using human "intelligence," can explain.
To the Watchtower Society, its a "guessing game." The separation of the "sheep and the goats," is simply a guessing game to them. They do not have any answers no more than any one else walking the earth.
So, is it "human reasoning," human intelligence that reveals it...has anyone explained the Bible, satisfactorily, comparable to the days of Jesus and the first century christians, clearly people of Godly inspiration...since then, has anyone explained, just using their own minds and thoughts, and without Divine inspiration?
Has it been done...can it be done, without divine intervention? Can anyone explain it on their own, or do we need some Divine help?
MDS

I thought we were discussing the scriptures. As MDS mentions above,To the Watchtower Society, its a "guessing game." The separation of the "sheep and the goats," is simply a guessing game to them. They do not have any answers no more than any one else walking the earth.

Based on scripture, do you think Jehovah would have a people in the last days that he would refer to as "Israel"? The scriptures indicate he would. Would you disagree with this?

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

James,

quote:
This all, I think, shows clearly, that even though we realize how far from the scriptural teachings many of the organization’s positions are, and even though we have the feeling that Jehovah must do something to correct the situation (only because of their bearing His Name), there is no reason to believe that the Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has any greater concern for the WT, then he has for any other of the world’s religions, which claim to speak in ‘His Name’. It is the same situation as with the nation of natural Israel. God did not „straighten out" that nation, nor did His Son do so. The desire on their part (particularly that of the national leadership) for the CHANGE was absent. The same reality we will find in WT leadership.

Do you think Jehovah would have a people in the last days that he would refer to as "Israel"? The scriptures indicate he would. Would you disagree with this?

7

"The nations will know"

by Jr in

no doubt you are familiar with the text at eze.

36:23. i quote, and the nations will have to know that i am jehovah, is the utterance of the sovereign lord jehovah.

it was used as a title for one of the study publications years ago.

Jr

Gopher,

Jehovah’s primary concern at this point is the disciplining, refining, and restoration of his people, Israel. Some will be called out of the organization when he rocks the heavens and earth soon. Haggai 2:6 – “For this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Yet once – it is a little while – and I am rocking the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry ground.’ These are a special group called the “tents of Judah”. The “tents of Judah” are chosen by Jehovah to fill a special role in his incoming kingdom. He will save these first.(Zech 12:7) Then he will rock the nations. Haggai 2:67, “And I will rock all the nations, and the desirable things of all the nations must come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ Jehovah of armies has said.” Jehovah will bring in many from the nations to replace many(like in the first century) and to make up the new “Spiritual Israel”. Right before the Great tribulation, the “Male child” spoken of in Revelation 12:5 will be expelled from the organization. This is a group of high level brothers in the organization that are attempting to reform it. They will be expelled and used by Jehovah to govern earth’s affairs. Then the great tribulation starts.
The king of the north referred to in Daniel chapter 11 will attack God’s people. Daniel 11:15,16, “And the king of the North will come and throw up a siege rampart and actually capture a city with fortification…And he will stand in the land of decoration…” -The land of “Decoration” has always referred to where God’s people reside, in his spiritual temple. As I continue, Daniel 11:30 says,
“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation. Here is where the king of the North places his influence inside the congregation, the disgusting thing. Jesus as an indication of the time to flee to the mountains before the “great tribulation”
mentions this. In Matthew 24, it says “when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains. “ But as we go on in Daniel, ”And those who are acting wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.” These that are acting wickedly are ones in the congregation that will be willing to accept the mark of the beast mentioned at Rev. 14:9. These will be lead into apostasy. Actually, the majority of God’s people will be among them. The scriptures indicate only a third of them will act with
insight. Listen, ”And it must occur in all the land, is the utterance of Jehovah, “that two parts in it are what will be cut off and expire; and as for the third, it will be left remaining in it. And I shall
certainly bring the third through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in examining of gold. It, for it’s part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it.”- Zechariah 13:8,9 As we continue in Daniel, it speaks of those having insight. Listen, “But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. And
as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days… And those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of the end.” This is a period during the great tribulation. This is what is referred to at Revelation chapter 12:5,6, ”And she gave birth to a son, a
male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.” This woman represents the third of redeemable servants of God, 1/3 of JW’s. They flee into the wilderness away from the face of the dragon. They don’t the want the mark of the beast. They know it’s wrong and refuse to serve it. So, they flee away from organizational arrangements, the wilderness. There Jehovah will provide special spiritual feeding for them. Ones place in Jehovah’s arrangement is dependent on him. Individuals like yourself can learn and accept a responsibility to support Jehovah’s kingdom. The key is learn, then bring your life in harmony with it. This all depends on ones response to the “Report” God issues mentioned at Ezekiel 21:6,7.

JR

Edited by - Jr on 19 March 2001 18:11:15

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

James,
is this scripturally sound?

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Hi James,
I'm sorry you didn't see my post before. It's on page #4. Here it is again:
Thanks for your response. It was said very eloquently . You are correct. It is not merely using his name that shows one as knowing Jehovah . Knowing Jehovah involves much more than being associated with the name. You are correct. The natural Jews carried God’s name upon themselves. But, they did not know Jehovah. Jesus had to teach them who Jehovah was. How? The law was designed to be a tutor of things to come, to lead them to the Christ. Jesus taught them who Jehovah was by reflecting the spirit of the law. In other words, he had to teach them how to reflect Jehovah’s personality. We were all made in God’s image, so he needed to teach them to reflect that personality. His goal was this: “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah! For they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah” - Jeremiah 31:34. So, knowing Jehovah was to reflect his personality. The nation of Israel did not do this.
But, there is a difference in carrying his name and knowing Jehovah. The fact that the Israelites didn’t know Jehovah did not mean they didn’t have his name upon them. They did. As Ezekiel 36:20 says , “ So they came in to the nations where they came in, and people proceeded to profane my holy name in saying with reference to them, ‘These are the people of Jehovah, and from his land they have gone out.” It was the placing of this particular Name upon the Jewish nation that brought special “blessings” upon them. In fact, it was the placing of His Name upon 'ancient Israel', in itself, that made them a special people for His possession. Numbers 6:27 says, “And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.” The placing of God’s Personal Name upon the Jewish nation proved to be the single most outstanding characteristic that identified them as “His people,” “His inheritance”, - it identified them as Israel. Placing this name upon them made them his people . So, one can carry this name without reflecting the fine qualities you mentioned above.
Bringing this home: Even though this “spiritual nation”, JW’s, has failed to represent Jehovah honorably, they carry his name upon themselves nonetheless. They too fail in knowing Jehovah. They too have to be taught to know Jehovah. This will be done soon. That’s why Jeremiah 31:34 says, “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah! For they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah.” Jehovah's people will know him. After he is glorified by disciplining them, they will know him. But for now, discipline is in store for God’s named people. Micah 4:6,7 says, “In that day,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “ I will gather her that was limping; and her that was dispersed I will collect together, even her whom I have treated badly , And I shall certainly make her that was limping a remnant, and her that was removed far off a mighty nation; and Jehovah will actually rule as king over them in Mount Zion, from now on and into time indefinite,” Yes, he will treat her very badly. But, it is for her good. As Hebrews 12:6 says, “ for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son.”
The intimacy reflected in the word "father" is appropriate as you mentioned. Using the name "Jehovah" is of paramount importance though. His people will be identified by this name and the nations will have to know this. As the drama in Ezekiel 36 is played out, these people need to be identified as the Israelites were when Ezekiel said, ‘These are the people of Jehovah. The nations, "will have to know that I am Jehovah" the scripture says.-Ezekiel 36:23 This name distinguishes him and them from all others. It must be attached to his people. Psalms 83:18, "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the most high over all the earth." His people will be instrumental in carrying this out as Jehovah disciplines them in front of the world.(Ezekiel 36:23) This name, Jehovah, must be used and recognized as the Almighty.

JR

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

Jr

Okay!! hmmmm.