Hi Emilliano,
I'd like to just ask a question. Do you think Jehovah still wants this scripture to be true? Psalms 83:18, "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the most high over all the earth." Just wondering your thoughts.
JR
Posts by Jr
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117Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Jr
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117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Jr
Hi James,
Thanks for your response. It was said very eloquently . No, it is not merely using his name that shows one as knowing Jehovah . Knowing Jehovah involves much more than being associated with the name. You are correct. The natural Jews carried God’s name upon themselves. But, they did not know Jehovah. Jesus had to teach them who Jehovah was. How? The law was designed to be a tutor of things to come, to lead them to the Christ. Jesus taught them who Jehovah was by reflecting the spirit of the law. In other words, he had to teach them how to reflect Jehovah’s personality. We were all made in God’s image, so he needed to teach them to reflect that personality. His goal was this: “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah! For they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah” - Jeremiah 31:34. So, knowing Jehovah was to reflect his personality. The nation of Israel did not do this.
But, there is a difference in carrying his name and knowing Jehovah. The fact that the Israelites didn’t know Jehovah did not mean they didn’t have his name upon them. They did. As Ezekiel 36:20 says , “ So they came in to the nations where they came in, and people proceeded to profane my holy name in saying with reference to them, ‘These are the people of Jehovah, and from his land they have gone out.” It was the placing of this particular Name upon the Jewish nation that brought special “blessings” upon them. In fact, it was the placing of His Name upon 'ancient Israel', in itself, that made them a special people for His possession. Numbers 6:27 says, “And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.” The placing of God’s Personal Name upon the Jewish nation proved to be the single most outstanding characteristic that identified them as “His people,” “His inheritance”, - it identified them as Israel. Placing this name upon them made them his people . So, one can carry this name without reflecting the fine qualities you mentioned above.
Bringing this home: Even though this “spiritual nation”, JW’s, has failed to represent Jehovah honorably, they carry his name upon themselves nonetheless. They too fail in knowing Jehovah. They too have to be taught to know Jehovah. This will be done. That’s why Jeremiah 31:34 says, “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah! For they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah.” But for now discipline is in store for God’s named people. Micah 4:6,7 says, “In that day,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “ I will gather her that was limping; and her that was dispersed I will collect together, even her whom I have treated badly , And I shall certainly make her that was limping a remnant, and her that was removed far off a mighty nation; and Jehovah will actually rule as king over them in Mount Zion, from now on and into time indefinite,” Yes, he will treat her very badly. But, it is for her good. As Hebrews 12:6 says, “ for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son.”
The intimacy reflected in the word "father" is very intimate and appropriate as you mentioned. The name "Jehovah" is of paramount importance though. His people will be identified by this name and the nations have to know this. They, "will have to know that I am Jehovah" the scripture says.-Ezekiel 36:23 Psalms 83:18, "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the most high over all the earth." His people will be instrumental in carrying this out. So, carrying this name brings a blessing or curse depending on the honor or dishonor brought on it.
JR -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Jr
Emiliano,
you said,quote:
Doing all this in Love for you all, I would like in conclusion quote the words of Paul in Ephesians 6:23,24
Peace be to the bretheren, and love with faith,from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible.
I do appreciate all your efforts and having this indebt discussion. I've learned a lot. And I too wish peace to the bretheren and to you. We'll all need it. Thanks.
JR -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Jr
A correction on my part:
After a little research, I must correct a statement made in agreement with Emilliano. Emilliano said Jehovah made a unilateral covenant with Abraham, which is in agreement with the WT. I agreed. But, I must disagree. Jehovah is a God of high standards. He always requires something of his servants. No human receives any blessing from Jehovah without first a great demonstration of some sort. In Abraham’s case, Jehovah required a large act of faith before he made this covenant with him. And I quote, “ By myself I do swear, ‘is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of you seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.” So quite a bit was required on Abraham’s part to receive this. To say it was unilateral, without conditions, is incorrect. Even though there was nothing else on Abraham’s part to keep the covenant in force, it cannot be considered unilateral. Jehovah new Abraham would remain faithful no matter what after this. Jehovah recognized his enduring faith and set it up as imitation for us.
JR -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Jr
James,
did my post make any since to you? Was it scripturally sound in your opinion?
JR -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
-
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Jr
Emiliano,
I'm sorry Emiliano. I don't see any, any, any scriptural support for your argument. None. All I see is a man that wants to believe the Jews will recieve something that's not supported by the scriptures. The reason you see these things is because you don't understand any of the deep, sacred things of God. The bible is not a novel so that anyone can read it and understand it. Much of it has to be revealed. Has Jehovah revealed these things to you? I don't think so. There's no support. Sorry. Unless you have scriptural support, I mean scriptures, don't waste your energy.
JR -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
-
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Jr
Emiliano,
I'm sorry Emiliano. I don't see any, any, any scriptural support for your argument. None. All I see is a man that wants to believe the Jews will recieve something that's not supported by the scriptures. The reason you see these things is because you don't understand any of the deep, sacred things of God. The bible is not a novel so that anyone can read it and understand it. Much of it has to be revealed. Has Jehovah revealed these things to you? I don't think so. There's no support. Sorry. Unless you have scriptural support, I mean scriptures, don't waste your energy.
JR -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
-
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Jr
Hi James,
to address your points: The Israelites were neither called Jehovah’s Witnesses. They were “Israelites”. But, what does Daniel say with regard to this matter? A Daniel 9:19 it says, “O Lord, Listen! O Lord, forgive! O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name. ”
It’s the same for the Christians. They were identified with that name. The name was synonymous with the Christians that had begun to follow Jesus. That is why Paul wrote, at
Acts 15:14-17, “Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name . And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name , says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old.”
They were called by his name. The nations knew who Jehovah was and who his people were. A "people who are called by my name"quote:
But now I ask:How can someone be in union and remain with the true Vine, Jesus, if according to the WT we don't have this true Vine as our Mediator? And we don't have any covenant with Him?
I must say, the WT is wrong! We are in a covenant relationship with Jehovah. They don’t fully understand theirplace in this arrangement. They have presumed upon many things. As the whole nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah, so to is the Spiritual nation. The whole spiritual nation is serving Jehovah in his temple, as MDS so explained.quote:
Let us think for a moment to the words Jesus said in John 10:16:"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and THEY WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK, ONE SHEPHERD."?? (Interlinear)and:"I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep". See also 1. Timothy 2:3-7, note "one Mediator, for all men"!
Yes, there are many more sheep. Jehovah is about to repeat the same drama that took place in the first century. That is what is referred to at Isa 49:20,21 and I quote, “yet in your own ears [Israel] the sons of your bereaved state will say, ‘this place has become too cramped for me. Do make room for me , that I may dwell.’ And you will for certain say in your heart, ‘Who has become father to these for me, since I am a woman bereaved of children and sterile, gone into exile and taken prisoner?” As for these, who has brought [them] up? Look! I myself had been left behind alone. These – where have they been?”
Yes, there are many, many, many more sheep to come.
JR
Edited by - Jr on 11 March 2001 12:35:31 -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
-
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Jr
Emiliano,
I am not sure your reading all of my post, so let me ask you this. If the Jews broke the law covenant, as follows:“ Now if you strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
Thus Jehovah is not obligated to them for this. And if Jehovah has given the Abrahamic promise to the gentiles, now Abrahams seed, what obligation does Jah have to the natural Jews? If Jehovah views Abraham's seed as "Israelites", what business does Jehovah have with the natural Jews? I hear you about this grafting in. But, this grafting is not guaranteed. It says, " he can" do it. Not he will do it. Correct??
…(verse 23), “They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again”. -
117
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr inin order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.
these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.
and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.
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Jr
Emiliano,
what point is it you want me to answer now?? I think I've answered all your post scripturally.
JR