3:) Can you explain, using only the Bible, why we should believe that today's Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is the sole channel of communication between God and mankind?
The Governing Body is not the sole channel of communication between God and mankind. God's word and guidance by God’s spirit as application to all Christians. The administrative position in Jehovah's Organization is simply to maintain orderliness as is any administrative position in a profit or non-profit organization.
In the formation, organization, and subsequent direction of the Christian congregation, the apostles occupied a primary position.
Now you are Christ’s body, and members individually. And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:27-28
And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ. Ephesians 4:11-13
Although they were joined by others of the “older men” in such supervision, the administrative position formed a principal part of the expanding Christian congregation, and this body was recognized by the early Christians everywhere as a channel used by God to aid in rendering decisions and directing the affairs of congregations throughout the earth, not as a channel of communication that supersedes the Bible.
Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem. Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day. Acts 16:4-5
This was possible for these men only because of the fulfillment of the promises about guidance by God’s spirit.
When the helper arrives that I will send you from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; and you, in turn, are to bear witness, because you have been with me from when I began. John 15:26-27
Such help enabled them to recall Jesus’ instructions and teachings, to clarify points of doctrine, and to be progressively guided “into all the truth” revealed through them at that apostolic period.
But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you. John 14:26
The same thing applies to all Christians, so when certain decisions are reached by the Governing Body the decisions are easy to reflect upon and understand.
alice.in.wonderland
JoinedPosts by alice.in.wonderland
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203
Questions for BANE, SCHOLAR, and All Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped inyou don't have to answer all of them at once.
i would be happy to see your answers to any of these questions.. remember, the inspired apostle peter gave this direction in the holy scriptures: "always [be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.
" (1st peter 3:15).
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alice.in.wonderland
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203
Questions for BANE, SCHOLAR, and All Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped inyou don't have to answer all of them at once.
i would be happy to see your answers to any of these questions.. remember, the inspired apostle peter gave this direction in the holy scriptures: "always [be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.
" (1st peter 3:15).
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alice.in.wonderland
1:) You talk alot about "Apostates" and you have referred to people on this website as "Apostates." Can you explain WHAT an "Apostate" is, and HOW you are able to judge whether or not someone is an "Apostate"?
I generally avoid referring to anyone as an apostate. Apostasy is described in Hebrews 10:26-31 and Hebrews 6:4-6:
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompense”; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God. Hebrews 10:26-31
For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. Hebrews 6:4-6
From Hebrews 6:4-6 you can see that there is more involved in coming to an accurate knowledge than acquiring head-knowledge.
w69 8/15 pp. 511-512 Questions From Readers
But one important point needs to be remembered: In Jesus’ case, he knew the innermost thoughts and heart condition of the Jews and could thus be certain that they had sinned against the holy spirit. Imperfect humans today cannot read hearts as can Jehovah and Jesus, so we cannot determine when someone has carried sin to the point of having sinned against the spirit. (Matt. 12:25; Heb. 4:13) That is for God to determine.
Even the fact that a person has been disfellowshiped from the Christian congregation does not necessarily mean that he has committed the unforgivable sin. He may later repent. In the early Corinthian congregation an anointed Christian had to be disfellowshiped because of his immorality and lack of evidence of repentance. Yet, apparently, that man was later reinstated into the congregation, showing that he had not sinned against the holy spirit.—1 Cor. 5:1-5; 2 Cor. 2:6-8.
If you never came to an accurate knowledge of truth you're not an apostate. Although the “evil slave class” is indignant toward the “faithful and discreet slave,” apostasy is a rebellion against God not an organization. -
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Just curious...how do JW's who became Catholics deal with the corrupt history of the church?
by gubberningbody ini don't get it..
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alice.in.wonderland
I addressed the early development of Catholicism and how the clergy class was formed in this post:
The Deification of the Pope
The decent into corruption started with the seduction of philosophy. Mankind’s Search for God, chap. 11 p. 261 Apostasy—The Way to God Blocked
It's safe to say that by the time Pope Innocent IV introduced torture in the Inquisition the corruption in Catholicism was systematic and Christendom had completed its decent into hell. That is why many people are atheists because of the religions they have been exposed to. They do tend to have a negative effect on people. Torture, murder, mayhem, etc...things of this nature.
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfmOur precious Savior never ordered anyone to be slaughtered for any reason, especially for hardness of heart against his message, nor for disagreeing with him on spiritual matters. But -- and this is a very big 'but' -- pagans regularly move to slaughter their opponents, usually with great relish and hardness of heart. In such slaughters, murder is not enough; rather, before the victim dies, pagans absolutely relish inflicting maximum pain upon their victims.
As the Inquisition rolled along, another demonic spirit swept through the Church and the people carrying out the Inquisition. This spirit was a spirit of absolute, diabolical hatred of mankind, accompanied by a corresponding love of torture.
Therefore, the monstrosity of the Inquisition stands before mankind as the ultimate evidence of the inherent Satanism of the Roman Catholic Church. For those who have the courage to examine this ultimate "rotten fruit", they will see the truth of the Catholic Church. And do not think Rome has changed, for the Bible tells us that a Leopard does not change its spots [Jeremiah 13:23], and Rome is always bragging that she never changes. A concrete proof of this fact is that Pope Paul VI (1963-1978) restored the Office of the Inquisition, renamed today as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ["Lives of the Popes", by Richard P. McBrien, HarperSanFrancisco, 1997, p. 282, 354]. Today, this nefarious Office of the Inquisition is headed by Cardinal Ratzinger.
The Age of Enlightenment paved the way for a great increase of knowledge, the very reverse of religious corruption.
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1891_MD_Thy_Kingdom_Come_1st_Ed.pdf
1891 Thy Kingdom Come 1st Ed.
This Time of the End, or day of Jehovah preparation beginning A. D. 1799 and closing A. D. 1914, though characterized by a great increase of knowledge over all past ages, is to culminate in the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known; but it is nevertheless preparing for and leading into that blessed time so long promised, when the true Kingdom of God, under the control of the true Christ, will fully establish an order of government the very reverse of that of Antichrist. Page 59
The idea that Jehovah's Organization is in anyway corrupt (past or present) is for the most part conjecture from ex-JWs that have emotional problems because of unwise decisions they have made in their personal life.
The wisdom of the shrewd is to understand his way, but the foolishness of stupid ones is deception. Proverbs 14:8
And their mouth is full of cursing and bitter expression.” “Ruin and misery are in their ways, and they have not known the way of peace.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Romans 3:14-18 -
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Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
Mad Dawg, I noticed you defending intelligent design over atheistic evolution. What belief system do you adhere to?
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
The fallacy you're pointing out isn't anything that underscores that the early Bible students or Jehovah's Witnesses in latter decades are not truth sincere seekers.
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Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
It doesn't indicate that 1914 would be a year identified for some sort of apocalypse that would annihilate the wicked. It states that 1914 would usher in the onset of the signs described in Matthew 24:7, 8. It's official beginning in 1874 is clearly explained in Thy Kingdom Come.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12868/12868-h/12868-h.htmThe Harp Of God.
[431] When the gentile dominion legally ends, the order being a wicked one under the supervision of Satan, the god of the evil world (2 Corinthians 4:3,4), and all these nations lying in the wicked one (1 John 5:19), it would be expected that the gentile kingdoms and nations would strive to hold on to their power. But when the proper time should come it would also be expected that the Lord, whose right it is, would take over the affairs into his own hands. And so he said: "We give thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."—Revelation 11:17,18.
[432] It will be observed that the Lord does not do all of his work in a twenty-four-hour day, but that gradually he performs his sovereign will. Specifically answering the question concerning the end of the world during the time of his presence, Jesus said: "Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes [literal and symbolic—revolutions] in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." (Matthew 24:7,8) Exactly on time, at the end of the gentile dominion, at the beginning of the end of the world, nation rose against nation and kingdom against kingdom in the most devastating war that man ever dreamed would come to the world. There followed in its wake a great pestilence, the Spanish influenza, which swept the earth; and the famine is still raging amongst many peoples and kindreds of the earth; and there have been revolutions, as well as many literal earthquakes in various parts of the earth. And these, said the Master, mark the beginning of the end of the world, which takes place during the time of his presence. The evidence here is overwhelming, proclaiming his presence and the end of the world.
They clearly stated the same thing here in 1891. The era prior to 1914 was characterized by an increasing of knowledge (preparation for the last days) and had its official beginning in 1799 which makes perfect sense according to their calculations. 1914 would culminate into a time of great trouble.
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1891_MD_Thy_Kingdom_Come_1st_Ed.pdf1891 Thy Kingdom Come 1st Ed.
This Time of the End, or day of Jehovah preparation beginning A. D. 1799 and closing A. D. 1914, though characterized by a great increase of knowledge over all past ages, is to culminate in the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known; but it is nevertheless preparing for and leading into that blessed time so long promised, when the true Kingdom of God, under the control of the true Christ, will fully establish an order of government the very reverse of that of Antichrist. Page 59
The typical Jubilee cycles pointed out A. D. 1874 as the date of our Lord's return; and yet the date was therein so ingeniously hidden, as to make its discovery impossible until the "Time of the End." And this testimony was made doubly strong by proofs from two standpoints-the Law and the Prophet-the two being entirely independent of each other, and yet equally clear and convincing. Page 125
All of this makes perfect sense to me. I don't observe that the future refinement of 1914 as the official date of Christ's second advent is anything to criticize or that what was stated in the Harp of God conflicts with future publications. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"The life story of a Japanese woman named Matsue Ishii appeared in the The Watchtower of May 1, 1988. She recalls how in 1928, she first came into contact with the Bible Students:
"Do you believe in the second advent of the Lord?" I asked the young man who came to the door. "Christ's second advent was realized in 1914," he answered. In astonishment, I told him that was impossible. "You should read this book," he said handing me The Harp of God." (p.22)
No edition of The Harp of God teaches that Christ's second advent was realized in 1914 and this was years before the 1874 date would be discarded."
I don't see that it can be said that a clerical error was even made. This is clear, concise and to the point:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12868/12868-h/12868-h.htm
EBook of The Harp of God, by J. F. Rutherford
In the year 606 B.C. Zedekiah was overthrown. He was taken a prisoner, carried away to Babylon, and Nebuchadnezzar established in the earth the first universal empire and the gentile times dated from that time forward. The length of the gentile times is definitely fixed in the Scriptures as a period of seven symbolic times of 360 years each, or a total of 2,520 years. This period beginning with the year 606 B.C. necessarily must end in 1914 A.D. God had declared that he would overturn the right of the descendants of Abraham to rule, thereby permitting the gentiles to have an uninterrupted sway until he should come whose right it is. The one whose right it is is the great Messiah, Christ Jesus the Lord. It would be reasonable to expect him to be present some time before he would take unto himself his great power to reign. His presence beginning in 1874, he has carried on his harvest work from 1878 forward, but has not interrupted the gentile dominion until that dominion should end. The end of the gentile rule, therefore, would mark necessarily the end of the present order; therefore, the end of the world. We should expect, then, to find 1914 as the beginning of the end of the old world or order of government. And that this would take place during the presence of the Lord he definitely stated.
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"Hypothetical question, Alice
Let's say, twenty years from now (Don't laugh!) you're reading The Watchtower. You come across an article that says something like this:
"Consider how Jehovah's organization progressed in the 20th century. In the 1920's it was discerned that the kingdom is a heavenly government with Jesus as king. In the 1930's a great crowd of other sheep were identified. In the 1940's a clearer understanding of Bible chronology was attained. In the 1950's it was realized that in the final part of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:34, the 'generation' are those anointed whose lives overlap during the time of the end. In the 1960's proper respect for blood was emphasized....."
You think to yourself, "Wait a minute....That didn't happen in the 50's, it happend around 2010 or so.....I remember that assembly."
--Is the issue here a problem with the "New light" or is it a problem with mistakenly reporting when that "New light" was attained?"
Fundamental Bible teachings always remain the same. Subtle changes are often blown out of proportion by opponents of the Bible. The main books that led the early Bible students to an understanding of where we are in the stream of time pertaining to 1914 was Daniel and Revelation. These books use symbolic language and illustrations.
The grand theme of the Bible doesn't revolve around the 1914 prophecy but considering all things it should be strikingly obvious where we are in the steam of time. Things have become clearer as time moves along. It's actually the world that constantly changes.
g02 5/22 p. 32 “The Scene of This World Is Changing”
The Bible contains this astute observation about human affairs: “The scene of this world is changing.” (1 Corinthians 7:31) The apostle Paul, who wrote those words, was comparing world events to the changing scenes on the stage of a theater. Throughout history, world leaders and trendsetters have come and gone on the world stage, the new replacing the old, again and again. But in our day—especially since the pivotal year 1914—the process seems to have accelerated.I posted this sometime back and people knew little about it.
Revelation
The apostle John writes that Jesus presented Revelation “in signs,” or symbols. Are there any Catholic or Protestant (two major denominations in Christendom) literary works that claim to have unlocked the meaning.
I assume the Catholic interpretation would traditionally come from Divine assistance by which the pope when acting as the supreme teacher of the Church, is preserved from all error as to faith or morals and the Vatican Council. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
“Nothing in Alice's cut-and-pasted comments changes (or really even relates to) the fact that the WTS claims that prior to 1914, they pointed forward to 1914 as the time for the second coming. In actuality, prior to 1914, they DID NOT point forward to 1914 as the time for the second coming; they claimed it had already happened, in 1874.
This is a blatant lie made by the Watchtower Society. Alice knows it and she's playing the misdirection card...”
“It's fun when the trolls "apologists" get pwned... “
I clearly stated that, everything is clearly explained when conclusions are reached in information published by Jehovah's Witnesses. It takes the outworking of events for some matters to be firmly established.
The early Bible students didn't know exactly what would happen in 1914 so they couldn't necessarily attribute an unknown event (the initiation of World War I) to God's adversary being permanently expelled from heaven and focusing all of his attention on earth: Satanic aggravation. They would also have to wait sometime for subsequent events to unfold to confirm that 1914 truly marked the beginning of the last days.
w65 7/1 pp. 389-390 What Is Required to Understand the Bible?
But we are not left merely to reason on the subject. God’s inspired Word plainly tells us that his holy spirit aids in understanding his Word: “‘Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.’ For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1 Cor. 2:9, 10) Likewise Jesus, shortly before leaving his apostles, assured them: “The helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.” “The spirit of the truth . . . will guide you into all the truth.”—John 14:26; 16:13.
I also stated that Holy Spirit isn't the equivalent of possessing supernatural powers as some possessed in certain parts of the Bible.
it-2 p. 1160 Visionary
A man who had or claimed to have visions from God regarding concealed or future matters. The Hebrew word for “visionary” is cho·zeh′, from cha·zah′, meaning “behold; vision.” Cha·zah′ and its derivatives are employed with reference to seeing visions.—Nu 24:4; Isa 1:1; 21:2; 22:1; Eze 13:7; Da 8:1; see SEER.
I also stated, the restoration of true worship wasn't an easy task for Charles Taze Russel and his contemporaries. Critics of Jehovah's Witnesses often analyze the early development of Jehovah's Witnesses under a microscope for flaws without understanding the religions they were coming out of.
You don't even have a system in your mind for interpreting God's Word, you have no understanding, you just know what you reject out of selfish motives. Me getting “pwned” is only in the mind of those with selective memories and reasoning abilities. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
TD, I've never come across an unbelieving mate that knows all of this stuff, so to me your head-knowledge is mysterious. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, the Bible is a unique book, but any organization's flawless analysis of the Bible doesn't make them ordained by God, nor does such an analysis prove that God exists. What Jehovah's Witnesses teach as to the grand theme of the Bible is unique, has a universal appeal and makes perfect sense to honest hearted individuals, but convincing evidence for God doesn't come strictly from something written in a book or by studying nature for evidence of intelligent design. This provides a starting point, but evidence for God comes directly from God himself, not from indirect sources: a book or evidence acquired in the natural world.