Posts by alice.in.wonderland

98

Blood Fractions

by alice.in.wonderland in

someone is pressing me about blood fractions on an unrelated thread, so i just moved the topic to an appropriate location.. "the point for me in every thread you touch is your sickening dishonesty and nauseating apologies for the old men in brooklyn who tell you what to do.. they have told you that products made from blood don't use blood, and you are so corrupt and gullible you just accept it.".

i accept any bible-based religion that adheres to the bible as its authority.. the purpose of this magazine, the watchtower, is to honor jehovah god, the supreme ruler of the universe.

just as watchtowers in ancient times enabled a person to observe developments from afar, so this magazine shows us the significance of world events in the light of bible prophecies.

alice.in.wonderland

I read your post AGuest but part of the problem is there are quite a few here that don't believe the Bible is God's inspired word. The writing of Leviticus was completed in 1512 B.C.E. Apart from the Old Testament and related sources, there are only a few surviving records of any sort from the Mosaic era, mostly in the form of inscribed stone slabs called stelae. There's certainly no record of blood transfusions as a medical practice, but both historical and Biblical records recount that humans worshiped a pantheon of gods made up of N'filim and fallen angels. Most polytheistic religions required human sacrifices and drank the sacrificial blood. Assyrians were noted to drink the blood of conquered nations while sieging their next conquest for intimidation purposes. As the book of Enoch includes the records of semi-divine entities drinking blood straight from a human, so do many other ancient religions. The Egyptian Sekhmet, the Greek Hecate, the Indian Kali and the Babylonian Lilitu are just a few examples.

The Bible book of John was completed in 98 C.E. I already stated that blood transfusions weren't a medical practice in the 1st century (the century the last book of the Bible was completed). The first historical attempt at a blood transfusion was described in the 17th century, although there was no way to safely store blood, screen blood for diseases or match blood types in the 17th century. Jesus obviously wasn't referring to channeling a person's blood to someone else as a means of salvation. There's very little sacrifice involved in such a procedure. There would be more sacrifice in giving up a vital organ to someone on a long waiting list for an organ transplant, but that's not the message Jesus was conveying either in John 15:13.

John 6:51-56 is obviously speaking in illustrative terms. "So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted." (Matthew 13:10-11)

John 6:35, 40 clearly indicates that the eating and drinking would be done by exercising faith in Jesus Christ. Since the Eucharistic transubstantiation: flesh and blood ritual is a principal rite of the Catholic Church, one might expect the Scriptures to support it. They do not. The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition) explained why: “The chief source of our doctrine . . . is tradition, which from the earliest times declares the impetratory [entreating] value of the Sacrifice of the Mass.”

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/document/protocol.shtml

Only validly ordained priests can preside at the Eucharist and consecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and Blood of the Lord. (1411)

I'd say it's better for Catholics that the miracle can't be performed by an ordained priest because eating anything turned into human blood and flesh once a week would probably make you ill after a while. What was stated in Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:2-7 and Matthew 23:23 was to men that constantly tried to trap Jesus in his speech. "Then the Pharisees went their way and took counsel together in order to trap him in his speech." (Matthew 22:15) Jesus replaced animal sacrifices as atonement for sin when he replaced the Mosaic law covenant. The Law covenant became in a sense “obsolete” when God announced by means of the prophet Jeremiah that there would be a new covenant. In 33 C.E. the Law covenant was canceled on the basis of Christ’s death (Collisions 2:14), the New Testament replacing it. Observing the sabbath and animal sacrifices were part of the law covenant under Moses, but the astonishment about abstaining from blood was reaffirmed in Acts 15:20, so what does Matthew 9:13, Matthew 12:2-7 or Matthew 23:23 have to with Acts 15:20?

209

My Family

by alice.in.wonderland in

to those that have accused me of insensitivity about abuse:.

my father and his brother and sisters were raised by a man who became rich in the 1950s.

he owned a construction company during a housing boom in a metropolitan area.

alice.in.wonderland

"You have got no moral high ground to look down on us from. You gave that away when you suggested Shamus should top himself.

I saw the post and pic too."

There's lurid imagery here depicting Jehovah's Witnesses:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/179583/1/Apostate-Artwork

The pic was in response to Shamus's profanity and a post a lot like the one he posted in this thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/198142/4/Protect-The-Flock-Letter-From-1980

If you notice, I don't respond with that type of thing now.

I had a temporary response to adults that act like imbeciles when initially I participated here, but I've adjusted to those having a mental age of from three to seven years and are unfortunately capable of some degree of communication. The pic is old news. Time to move on. The forum is supposed be fun; "The place to discuss anything relating to Jehovah's Witnesses and the WatchTower Bible and Tract Society... or just make new friends!" This back and forth crapola is not fun.

209

My Family

by alice.in.wonderland in

to those that have accused me of insensitivity about abuse:.

my father and his brother and sisters were raised by a man who became rich in the 1950s.

he owned a construction company during a housing boom in a metropolitan area.

alice.in.wonderland

"The thread should be renamed: If you want to know how crazy and non-sensical Alice (or Rachel or whatever she goes by nowadays) then read!"

brotherdan, (you who claim to be a Bible based Christian) if someone matches the below description, like anything they say really means anything;

As for you, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, how they used to say to you: “In the last time there will be ridiculers, proceeding according to their own desires for ungodly things.” These are the ones that make separations, animalistic [men], not having spirituality. But you, beloved ones, by building up yourselves on your most holy faith, and praying with holy spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love, while you are waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ with everlasting life in view. Also, continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save [them] by snatching [them] out of the fire. But continue showing mercy to others, doing so with fear, while you hate even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh. Jude 17-23

But now really put them all away from you, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of your mouth. Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it. Colossians 3:5-10

I knew someone would come along and drop a bunch of garbage on this thread. If you condone the hate-speech, the "cult" rhetoric that you try and push off on others is nothing but ridicule. The Bible speaks on numerous occasions of the utter rejection of Jehovah and examples of those that have made irreversible decisions towards this end. If someone fits this description, it's not crazy to take that into consideration. The problem is with them, not Jehovah's Witnesses.

209

My Family

by alice.in.wonderland in

to those that have accused me of insensitivity about abuse:.

my father and his brother and sisters were raised by a man who became rich in the 1950s.

he owned a construction company during a housing boom in a metropolitan area.

alice.in.wonderland

"This statement actually explains alot. You were taught at a very young age to ignore the obvious, lie about it and say 'it never happened.' A theme which you have obviously carried over into adulthood and have demonstrated on this very board. You have been shown plenty of evidence that child abuse has and does go on in the Organization. You've heard first hand accounts of it from people like St. Ann, Lady Lee and Avashai. Yet because your JW father taught to you lie and ignore the obvious (even when it's staring you straight in the face), you're simply carrying on a very bad habit and are trying to foister your lies onto others by either ignoring their posts, or insinuating that they must not be telling the whole story and that the Organization really hasn't covered anything up.
In other words, dear old dad turned you into a pathological liar. How many of the following best describes Alice:
•Lies when it is very easy to tell the truth.
•Lies to get sympathy, to look better, to save their butt, etc.
•Fools people at first but once they get to know him, no one believes anything they ever say.
•May have a personality disorder.
•Extremely manipulative.
•Has been caught in lies repeatedly.
•Never fesses up to the lies.
•Is a legend in their own mind
Perhaps you should spend less time on here Alice, and spend a bit more time seeking professional help with your problems."

So you acknowledge that I told the truth about something in my family, but at the same time I lie. Your accusation(s) are utterly false and to top off you pathologically lie without any underlying reason so there's evidently something much worse involved. You say I'm “extremely manipulative” while at the same time using something personal I shared as a tool for manipulation. You dishonor your brother in law's death by claiming it was “cult related.” That being case, I don't expect any less from you. If you really believed I was in a cult, you wouldn't include the hate speech anymore than if I was a Scientologist or a Mormon. I think you know your closed mind and hateful attitude towards Jehovah's Witnesses is completely uncalled for so there's no professional or anyone else that can help those that reject God’s Kingdom and revile Jehovah’s name. Your diseased, ulcerous condition is laid bare.

125

Adam and Eve and free will

by inbetween in

pondering over this dilemma:.

lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.

watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.

alice.in.wonderland

"Maybe its just me not remembering, but could someone please show me the scripture that says Adam and Eve were created perfect?
Thanks,
Tammy"

The Bible speaks of human perfection on numerous occasions. Why would the perfect man Jesus be a corresponding ransom for a man created imperfect?

For we all stumble many times. If anyone does not stumble in word, this one is a perfect man, able to bridle also [his] whole body. James 3:2

For such a high priest as this was suitable for us, loyal, guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens. Hebrews 7:26

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-7

33

Bible Contradictions

by brotherdan in

i will go out on a limb and say that this has probably been discussed alot.

but for my own personal benefit i'd like to hear everyones "favorite" bible contradiction.

i'd also like to hear any refutes that anyone has to any of these contradictions.

alice.in.wonderland

War or Peace?

Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Romans 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

It's God's advisories that have time and time again, instigated war. The necessary consequence of man’s right to life is his right to self-defense. In a civilized society, force may be used only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. All the reasons which make the initiation of physical force an evil, make the retaliatory use of physical force a moral imperative.

125

Adam and Eve and free will

by inbetween in

pondering over this dilemma:.

lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.

watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.

alice.in.wonderland

A godless worldview leaves much less in the way of freewill if you're implying that mortality cancels out freewill. Mortality cannot be willed away. Not that the biological basis of aging and death is an integral part of evolution, but assuming it is, at best it's just a means to an end. You have more options if the report in Genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288306/

A Means to an End: The Biological Basis of Aging and Death.

The questions of how and why we age have great intrinsic intellectual appeal and major societal implications. William Clark, an Emeritus Professor of Immunology at UCLA, has written a popular book in an attempt to introduce the subject to nonspecialists. That he himself is a nonspecialist is probably a good thing, since there is the potential to bring a fresh new perspective. He has succeeded in producing a very readable review that does indeed outline the major ideas. Unfortunately, although he quite properly emphasizes the evolutionary theory of why we age, his language in many sections of the book indicates a belief that a genetic program has evolved to produce senescence.

All serious students of the evolutionary biology of aging would agree that the senescent phenotypes that emerge in age-structured populations are the result of a decline in the force of natural selection with respect to the age of gene effects.

24

Alice

by Quillsky in

jw
friends

alice, i have a sense that you've dug yourself a hole on this forum and don't know how to get out of it.. you would probably like to engage and share your stories as most of us do here, and as you've done in your child abuse thread, but you've created an antagonistic persona that makes it difficult for many to empathize with your real life concerns and experiences.. i suggest that you retire your "alice in wonderland" moniker and return as a normal poster, a jw with doubts.

many will understand, and you may make some friends..

alice.in.wonderland

"alice.in.wonderland is becoming a swear word around here.

-Sab"

I'm not sure I understand. I'm here to challenge opposing viewpoints; that's constructive. If you can't accept a challenge I assume you're just here to complain: that's not constructive.

84

question for theMadJW and other Wt apologists

by isaacaustin in

on what basis do you make the claim that the leadership of the jw's, aka governing body, is the organization god is and has been working through continuously since 1919?.

alice.in.wonderland

The original Bible cannon was sealed the in the first century. Anyone who teaches the truth found in God's Word can rightly be identified as a channel of communication used by God. There's a formal recognition of the legal organization in use by Jehovah's Witnesses as this channel but anyone who agrees that they teach the truth found in God's Word can participate.

23

Christianitys Role in the Rise of the Nazis

by AK - Jeff in

you know what happens when atheists take overremember nazi germany?

many christians point to nazism, alongside stalinism, to illustrate the perils of atheism in power.1 at the other extreme, some authors paint the vatican as hitlers eager ally.

meanwhile, the nazis are generally portrayed as using terror to bend a modern civilization to their agenda; yet we recognize that hitler was initially popular.

alice.in.wonderland

Christians: Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox - Were Paving the Road to Auschwitz Centuries Before the Nazis

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/

Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries

1648-1649 Christians under the leadership of Bohdan Khmelnytsky rampaged through the towns and villages of Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland, Galicia, and White Russia, murdering and torturing an estimated 90,000-100,000 Jews, and destroying at least 100 Jewish communities. Dozens of synagogues are burned down. Jews are hanged from trees alongside pigs and dogs.

In 18th century, the Christian churches continue to preach that the Jews are guilty of deicide and are still being punished by God by not having their own homeland, and by being deprived of citizenship in the countries where they live. Churches continue to present public Passion plays, in which Jews are portrayed as the bloodthirsty killers of Jesus.

The bogus saints Simon of Trent and Little Hugh of Norwich, bogus victims of cruel Jews, are still venerated. The image of the Judensau still decorates churches and cathedrals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau

Pamphlets, broadsheets, and books continue to demonize Jews. Even though Jews have been mingling with non-Jews since ancient times, cartoons show them with stereotyped racial features, and as cruel and bloodthirsty.

Most towns still compel Jews to live in ghettos. Most countries still bar Jews from most professions. Most universities still forbid Jewish students. Some towns still compel Jews to wear a badge of infamy. Most countries still forbid Jews from holding public office. Most guilds of craftsmen and artisans still exclude Jews. A few governments begin to grant the Jews some civil rights, but even some of the more enlightened European writers who have broken with the Church, like Rousseau and Voltaire repeat the usual slanders against the Jews.

1710 Johann Eisenmenger publishes Judaism Exposed, a two-volume work in which he repeats every lie, every slander, every vicious stereotype that the Christians have propagated.

1712 Christians in Sandomierz accuse the Jews of ritual blood murder, and expel them from the city.

1720 Christians in Grodno accuse a Jew of murdering a little girl. He is executed.

1720 Madrid. The Catholic Inquisition burns five conversos at the stake.

1726 Lisbon. The Catholic Inquisition burns a converso at the stake.

1727 Catherine the Great expels all Jews from Ukraine.

1728 Poland. A converted Jew in Lvov decides to return to his faith. All the Jews of Lvov are arrested, but most manage to escape. Joshua Reizes commits suicide, and his brother Chaim is tortured, and then burned at the stake with his brother’s corpse.

1737 Lisbon. The Catholic Inquisition burns the converso Antonio Jose da Silva at the stake.

1740-1760 The Orthodox Christian Haidamaks massacre Jews in Polish-ruled Ukraine, including 2,000 in the city of Uman in 1768.

1744 The Christians of Prague falsely accuse the Jews treason, and expel them from the city.

1744 Frederick The Great permits only ten Jewish families to remain in Breslau, and the rest are expelled.

1744 Archduchess of Austria Maria Theresa orders the expulsion of all Jews from the province of Bohemia.

1746 The city of Dresden forbids any Jews from moving to the city. Those who remain must pay a poll-tax, and they may not build a synagogue.

1746 Lisbon. The Catholic Inquisition burns three conversos at the stake.

1749 The city of Dresden raises the poll-tax on Jews, and dozens who cannot pay are compelled to leave.

1750 Frederick the Great rules that Jewish families in Berlin with more than one son must leave the city.

1772 The city of Dresden again raises the poll-tax on Jews, and again more who cannot pay are compelled to leave. The only occupation permitted to those who remain is selling old clothes and rags.

1750 Frederick the Great passes a law which denies most Jews in Prussia hereditary rights of residence; the right to join craft and merchant guilds; and the right to sell wool, brandy, wines, leather, or tobacco.

1753 When a Bill is proposed in the English Parliament to give the Jews civil rights, it is objected that Jews do not deserve such rights because of their guilt of deicide; because it is not fitting for a Christian government to treat Jews kindly; because the presence of Jews will increase the number of deists and atheist; and because if the Jews are permitted to thrive in England, they will take over the government and forcibly convert the Christians to Judaism.

1775-1799 Pope Pius VI rules that Jews living in the Papal States be compelled to listen to antisemitic sermons. He also rules that if a Catholic kidnaps a Jewish child and performs the rite of baptism, the Church then has the right to take the child from its parents.

1782 All the Jews of Russia are compelled by law to move into towns. They may no longer live in villages, or engage in farming.

1783 Friedrich Traugott Hartmann writes and publishes an antisemitic pamphlet arguing that the Jews of Austria should only be granted civil rights if they convert to Christianity.

1790 Christians accuse Jews of ritual blood murder in Grodno. Rabbi Eleazar ben Solomon is executed.

1791 Karl Wilhelm Grattenauer writes in his antisemitic pamphlet, On the Physical and Moral Attributes of Today’s Jews: “The Jews are a very singular race….Why suffer among us a horde of people whose character is a mix of all the evils and failings that exist in humanity?”

1791 All the Jews of Russia are compelled to move to an area called the Pale of Settlement.

1795 Ernst von Kortum writes in his antisemitic tract, On Judaism and the Jews, that the Jews should not be granted civil rights, because they are by nature “too lazy and too weak to choose an occupation that requires strength and perseverance.”

http://www.ushmm.org/research/center/church/persecution/after.html

European anti-Semitism after 1800

The antipathies of Poles, Germans, Russians and others against Jews are often explained as if they were religiously based in the patristic and medieval manner. From the early 19th century on, however, anti-Jewish sentiment of Catholic and Protestant Europe, itself increasingly secularized, had other roots no less mythical. The proper term for it is anti-Semitism. Its target was Jewish ethnicity. It was primarily politically and economically motivated. Demagogues, however, were only too happy to put the ancient Christian rhetoric of anti-Judaism in its service.

Germany was populated with more Jews than any country in Western Europe when Hitler came to power. It also had the same ugly heritage of anti-Jewish sentiment as all Christian Europe. The short-lived Weimar Republic could not deliver Germany from the severe economic hardships it experienced after World War I. Jews had been the Republic’s strong supporters and a few of them were the architects of its constitution, a fact that Hitler capitalized upon. Huge inflation in 1923 and the depression of 1929 increased Germany’s problems. Some leading capitalist families, gentile and Jewish, managed to escape these problems, but the eyes of the angry populace were trained on the Jews rather than the gentiles.