The fallacy you're pointing out isn't anything that underscores that the early Bible students or Jehovah's Witnesses in latter decades are not truth sincere seekers.
alice.in.wonderland
JoinedPosts by alice.in.wonderland
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
It doesn't indicate that 1914 would be a year identified for some sort of apocalypse that would annihilate the wicked. It states that 1914 would usher in the onset of the signs described in Matthew 24:7, 8. It's official beginning in 1874 is clearly explained in Thy Kingdom Come.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12868/12868-h/12868-h.htmThe Harp Of God.
[431] When the gentile dominion legally ends, the order being a wicked one under the supervision of Satan, the god of the evil world (2 Corinthians 4:3,4), and all these nations lying in the wicked one (1 John 5:19), it would be expected that the gentile kingdoms and nations would strive to hold on to their power. But when the proper time should come it would also be expected that the Lord, whose right it is, would take over the affairs into his own hands. And so he said: "We give thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."—Revelation 11:17,18.
[432] It will be observed that the Lord does not do all of his work in a twenty-four-hour day, but that gradually he performs his sovereign will. Specifically answering the question concerning the end of the world during the time of his presence, Jesus said: "Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes [literal and symbolic—revolutions] in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." (Matthew 24:7,8) Exactly on time, at the end of the gentile dominion, at the beginning of the end of the world, nation rose against nation and kingdom against kingdom in the most devastating war that man ever dreamed would come to the world. There followed in its wake a great pestilence, the Spanish influenza, which swept the earth; and the famine is still raging amongst many peoples and kindreds of the earth; and there have been revolutions, as well as many literal earthquakes in various parts of the earth. And these, said the Master, mark the beginning of the end of the world, which takes place during the time of his presence. The evidence here is overwhelming, proclaiming his presence and the end of the world.
They clearly stated the same thing here in 1891. The era prior to 1914 was characterized by an increasing of knowledge (preparation for the last days) and had its official beginning in 1799 which makes perfect sense according to their calculations. 1914 would culminate into a time of great trouble.
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1891_MD_Thy_Kingdom_Come_1st_Ed.pdf1891 Thy Kingdom Come 1st Ed.
This Time of the End, or day of Jehovah preparation beginning A. D. 1799 and closing A. D. 1914, though characterized by a great increase of knowledge over all past ages, is to culminate in the greatest time of trouble the world has ever known; but it is nevertheless preparing for and leading into that blessed time so long promised, when the true Kingdom of God, under the control of the true Christ, will fully establish an order of government the very reverse of that of Antichrist. Page 59
The typical Jubilee cycles pointed out A. D. 1874 as the date of our Lord's return; and yet the date was therein so ingeniously hidden, as to make its discovery impossible until the "Time of the End." And this testimony was made doubly strong by proofs from two standpoints-the Law and the Prophet-the two being entirely independent of each other, and yet equally clear and convincing. Page 125
All of this makes perfect sense to me. I don't observe that the future refinement of 1914 as the official date of Christ's second advent is anything to criticize or that what was stated in the Harp of God conflicts with future publications. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"The life story of a Japanese woman named Matsue Ishii appeared in the The Watchtower of May 1, 1988. She recalls how in 1928, she first came into contact with the Bible Students:
"Do you believe in the second advent of the Lord?" I asked the young man who came to the door. "Christ's second advent was realized in 1914," he answered. In astonishment, I told him that was impossible. "You should read this book," he said handing me The Harp of God." (p.22)
No edition of The Harp of God teaches that Christ's second advent was realized in 1914 and this was years before the 1874 date would be discarded."
I don't see that it can be said that a clerical error was even made. This is clear, concise and to the point:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/12868/12868-h/12868-h.htm
EBook of The Harp of God, by J. F. Rutherford
In the year 606 B.C. Zedekiah was overthrown. He was taken a prisoner, carried away to Babylon, and Nebuchadnezzar established in the earth the first universal empire and the gentile times dated from that time forward. The length of the gentile times is definitely fixed in the Scriptures as a period of seven symbolic times of 360 years each, or a total of 2,520 years. This period beginning with the year 606 B.C. necessarily must end in 1914 A.D. God had declared that he would overturn the right of the descendants of Abraham to rule, thereby permitting the gentiles to have an uninterrupted sway until he should come whose right it is. The one whose right it is is the great Messiah, Christ Jesus the Lord. It would be reasonable to expect him to be present some time before he would take unto himself his great power to reign. His presence beginning in 1874, he has carried on his harvest work from 1878 forward, but has not interrupted the gentile dominion until that dominion should end. The end of the gentile rule, therefore, would mark necessarily the end of the present order; therefore, the end of the world. We should expect, then, to find 1914 as the beginning of the end of the old world or order of government. And that this would take place during the presence of the Lord he definitely stated.
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"Hypothetical question, Alice
Let's say, twenty years from now (Don't laugh!) you're reading The Watchtower. You come across an article that says something like this:
"Consider how Jehovah's organization progressed in the 20th century. In the 1920's it was discerned that the kingdom is a heavenly government with Jesus as king. In the 1930's a great crowd of other sheep were identified. In the 1940's a clearer understanding of Bible chronology was attained. In the 1950's it was realized that in the final part of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:34, the 'generation' are those anointed whose lives overlap during the time of the end. In the 1960's proper respect for blood was emphasized....."
You think to yourself, "Wait a minute....That didn't happen in the 50's, it happend around 2010 or so.....I remember that assembly."
--Is the issue here a problem with the "New light" or is it a problem with mistakenly reporting when that "New light" was attained?"
Fundamental Bible teachings always remain the same. Subtle changes are often blown out of proportion by opponents of the Bible. The main books that led the early Bible students to an understanding of where we are in the stream of time pertaining to 1914 was Daniel and Revelation. These books use symbolic language and illustrations.
The grand theme of the Bible doesn't revolve around the 1914 prophecy but considering all things it should be strikingly obvious where we are in the steam of time. Things have become clearer as time moves along. It's actually the world that constantly changes.
g02 5/22 p. 32 “The Scene of This World Is Changing”
The Bible contains this astute observation about human affairs: “The scene of this world is changing.” (1 Corinthians 7:31) The apostle Paul, who wrote those words, was comparing world events to the changing scenes on the stage of a theater. Throughout history, world leaders and trendsetters have come and gone on the world stage, the new replacing the old, again and again. But in our day—especially since the pivotal year 1914—the process seems to have accelerated.I posted this sometime back and people knew little about it.
Revelation
The apostle John writes that Jesus presented Revelation “in signs,” or symbols. Are there any Catholic or Protestant (two major denominations in Christendom) literary works that claim to have unlocked the meaning.
I assume the Catholic interpretation would traditionally come from Divine assistance by which the pope when acting as the supreme teacher of the Church, is preserved from all error as to faith or morals and the Vatican Council. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
“Nothing in Alice's cut-and-pasted comments changes (or really even relates to) the fact that the WTS claims that prior to 1914, they pointed forward to 1914 as the time for the second coming. In actuality, prior to 1914, they DID NOT point forward to 1914 as the time for the second coming; they claimed it had already happened, in 1874.
This is a blatant lie made by the Watchtower Society. Alice knows it and she's playing the misdirection card...”
“It's fun when the trolls "apologists" get pwned... “
I clearly stated that, everything is clearly explained when conclusions are reached in information published by Jehovah's Witnesses. It takes the outworking of events for some matters to be firmly established.
The early Bible students didn't know exactly what would happen in 1914 so they couldn't necessarily attribute an unknown event (the initiation of World War I) to God's adversary being permanently expelled from heaven and focusing all of his attention on earth: Satanic aggravation. They would also have to wait sometime for subsequent events to unfold to confirm that 1914 truly marked the beginning of the last days.
w65 7/1 pp. 389-390 What Is Required to Understand the Bible?
But we are not left merely to reason on the subject. God’s inspired Word plainly tells us that his holy spirit aids in understanding his Word: “‘Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.’ For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.” (1 Cor. 2:9, 10) Likewise Jesus, shortly before leaving his apostles, assured them: “The helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.” “The spirit of the truth . . . will guide you into all the truth.”—John 14:26; 16:13.
I also stated that Holy Spirit isn't the equivalent of possessing supernatural powers as some possessed in certain parts of the Bible.
it-2 p. 1160 Visionary
A man who had or claimed to have visions from God regarding concealed or future matters. The Hebrew word for “visionary” is cho·zeh′, from cha·zah′, meaning “behold; vision.” Cha·zah′ and its derivatives are employed with reference to seeing visions.—Nu 24:4; Isa 1:1; 21:2; 22:1; Eze 13:7; Da 8:1; see SEER.
I also stated, the restoration of true worship wasn't an easy task for Charles Taze Russel and his contemporaries. Critics of Jehovah's Witnesses often analyze the early development of Jehovah's Witnesses under a microscope for flaws without understanding the religions they were coming out of.
You don't even have a system in your mind for interpreting God's Word, you have no understanding, you just know what you reject out of selfish motives. Me getting “pwned” is only in the mind of those with selective memories and reasoning abilities. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
TD, I've never come across an unbelieving mate that knows all of this stuff, so to me your head-knowledge is mysterious. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, the Bible is a unique book, but any organization's flawless analysis of the Bible doesn't make them ordained by God, nor does such an analysis prove that God exists. What Jehovah's Witnesses teach as to the grand theme of the Bible is unique, has a universal appeal and makes perfect sense to honest hearted individuals, but convincing evidence for God doesn't come strictly from something written in a book or by studying nature for evidence of intelligent design. This provides a starting point, but evidence for God comes directly from God himself, not from indirect sources: a book or evidence acquired in the natural world.
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Jesus Christ = Zombie + Frankenstein + Dracula
by Simon inpretty accurate and sums up what a fundamentally crazy belief it is .... .
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alice.in.wonderland
This analogy appears to be related to the traditional Catholic Trinity symbol and the eucharistic transubstantiation: the vampiric eating of flesh and blood.
The Borromean rings as a symbol of the Christian Trinity, from a 13th-century manuscript.
When you think about it, medieval Christianity is a religion with a zombie savior and cannibalistic rituals. Superstitious people in Africa eat albinos because they think that the albinos possess magical powers. According to the Catholic version of the Last Supper, when a person partakes of the Eucharist they're eating Jesus.
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"AIW - you are either one of the dumbest dubs out there or there is an agenda for you being here pasting total BS. How are you affiliated with wts? Do you in any way have any connection to wts as in being a hired agent working for wts or any of their affiliated branches or are you a Bethal troll?"
Once again I get the Joe Pesci defense as a lame excuse for intelligent discourse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KR1zVqizo
To answer your question, the answer is no. The headquarters in New York doesn't hire covert operatives to infiltrate anonymous online discussion groups. Another ad-hominem attack in the name of productive discussion," one of the funniest things about this discussion group, but par the course for some here: desperate, intellectually hollow and useless.
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143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"A little advice, Alice: Put your arguments in your own words. Enough already with the copy and pasting. I gloss over your copy & pasted articles trying to find your thoughts on them. I'm sure most others do as well. The reason is that many, if not most, of us here are very familiar with the WTB&TS's stance and reasoning points on these issues. I myself gave public talks for many years and was married to a regular pioneer. I understand how they reason. I disagree with it. I'm not interested in reading reprinted WT articles. Tell us what YOU think. Respond directly. Reference articles if you wish, but don't copy and paste. Any of us could look that stuff up on the CD ROM if we cared to."
Galileo, people here copy from the Watchtower CD all of the time out of duplicitous motives (I could quickly generate a list). Seeking the truth about God is a personal endeavor. Others who have invested their time in studying God's Word can aid in Bible understanding. That's all the information published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is: tools for Bible understanding like “Master the Fundamentals of C# 3.0” is a tool for learning the programming language C sharp.
Opponents of Jehovah's Witnesses stereotype these learning tools into weapons for “mind-control.” If I borrow from the Watchtower CD it's simply to set the record straight as my personal comments are always included. -
143
Thought Control (A simple test for JW's)
by TD inin george orwell's novel 'nineteen eighty-four' the capitulation of the principal protagonist is portrayed in his willingness to assent to the proposition that two and two make five.
once he had denied objective reality, his mental conquest was complete and he was no longer truly the master of his own mind.
nineteen eighty-four is in many ways, a very depressing read.. a charge commonly leveled at jehovah's witnesses is that the type of mind control envisioned by orwell has been and continues to be used on them.
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alice.in.wonderland
"Telling the world....."Millions now living will never die" makes the WBT$ a Visionary.."
“Millions now living will never die“ is a concept found in numerous places in the Bible.
And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14
re chap. 23 p. 152 par. 12 The Second Woe—Armies of CavalryFrom 1918 to 1922, the John class began to hold out to distressed humanity the happy prospect that “millions now living will never die.” In 1923 it was also made known that the sheep of Matthew 25:31-34 would inherit life on earth under God’s Kingdom. A similar hope was held out in the booklet Freedom for the Peoples, released at the international convention in 1927. In the early 1930’s the upright Jehonadab class and the ‘men sighing and groaning’ over Christendom’s sorry spiritual condition were shown to be identical with the symbolic sheep having earthly life prospects. (Ezekiel 9:4; 2 Kings 10:15, 16) Directing such ones to the modern-day “cities of refuge,” The Watchtower of August 15, 1934, stated: “Those of the Jonadab class have heard the sound of God’s trumpet and have heeded the warning by fleeing to God’s organization and associating with God’s people, and there they must abide.”—Numbers 35:6.
