I apologise to the board for saying this, but I don't apologise to Alice.
I can't stand when someone like this is in pain and asking for help and telling a painful story and some fargin' icehole calls them a liar.
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It's actually worse if this person is telling the truth. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt. You adopt these extreme partisan viewpoints of the "brainwashed cult members," enemies you call “family.” I guess I could call Tiger Woods brainwashed for believing in Buddha: "I like Buddhism because it's a whole way of being and living," Tiger Woods told Sports Illustrated.
I don't. Allthough I disagree, I respect the way of life that makes sense to him. If this person is telling the truth I'm sure the believing family is aware of her cold-hearted stigmatization towards her family's beliefs. She deserves whatever problems come of it. Lie all you want. I'm not the close-minded, partisan troll.
alice.in.wonderland
JoinedPosts by alice.in.wonderland
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59
At a loss what to do RE: JW family and my kids
by 2pink ini have 2 small kids, ages 4 and 5 yrs and one on the way (via adoption!).
my husband and i faded/suddenly disappeared last fall, never to go back to meetings.
we outed ourselves and told our super hardcore parents/family members that we didn't believe it anymore, were choosing a different path etc.
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alice.in.wonderland
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Greetings Deists
by Fester ini initially joined this group a couple of years back thinking it would be a great place to spread the real good news about deism.
if you're unfamiliar with deism, please check out the site:.
http://www.deism.com.
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alice.in.wonderland
Deism was generally a response to medieval religions, because of a higher clergy that recruited from nobility and saw their office mainly as a source of prestige and power. Most people are deists because evolution can't truly explain the origin of the natural world and they view religion as a man-made storefront for the natural world's explanation of God.
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59
At a loss what to do RE: JW family and my kids
by 2pink ini have 2 small kids, ages 4 and 5 yrs and one on the way (via adoption!).
my husband and i faded/suddenly disappeared last fall, never to go back to meetings.
we outed ourselves and told our super hardcore parents/family members that we didn't believe it anymore, were choosing a different path etc.
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alice.in.wonderland
"Shut up, Alice."
What else is there to conclude about this person's family except that it is completely screwed up and it's all the “cult's” fault. You'll only get advice about this “situation” from those that enjoy a study diet of supermarket tabloid.
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59
At a loss what to do RE: JW family and my kids
by 2pink ini have 2 small kids, ages 4 and 5 yrs and one on the way (via adoption!).
my husband and i faded/suddenly disappeared last fall, never to go back to meetings.
we outed ourselves and told our super hardcore parents/family members that we didn't believe it anymore, were choosing a different path etc.
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alice.in.wonderland
I don't even take the “family” stories ppl tell here at all seriously. I know many families with unbelieving family members. Jehovah's Witnesses never take this antagonistic rant toward unbelieving family. Whether the supposed “family members” exist or not they're nothing but expendable pawns in your anti-JW scheme.
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Jehovah correcting the organization
by sabastious inread the account of moses taking the credit for the water provision miracle and that of king david's folly and his consequences.. ...read them.... ...you are still reading.... ...ok now you have that fresh in your mind.. jehovah had a correctional arrangement in place for all his spokesmen.
story of jonah would work great too.
the point being that in the bible god has always had this correctional arrangement for the leaders of his earthly organization.. that being said, where did that arrangement go?
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alice.in.wonderland
The GB's Ouiji board doesn't always get a good signal - especially in "Dead Zones" like Mathew 24:34.
Anybody can do what the GB does. Elect yourself as God's only channel for communication, and start making stuff up.
- Lime
I've already stated that the Bible is a unique book, but any organization's flawless analysis of the Bible doesn't make them ordained by God, nor does such an analysis prove that God exists. What Jehovah's Witnesses teach as to the grand theme of the Bible is unique, has a universal appeal and makes perfect sense to honest hearted individuals, but convincing evidence for God doesn't come strictly from something written in a book or by studying nature for evidence of intelligent design. This provides a starting point, but evidence for God comes directly from God himself, not from indirect sources: a book or evidence acquired in the natural world.
The only evidence for this in our time is God's active force. Some religions make claims to this end and this is what one person said about it:
Has matter/energy always existed?
"On the contrary, is any religion able to prove that a soul/spirit exists? You can quote the Bible all you want or claim that you "feel" the energy inside you, but I'll claim that it is just normal brain chemistry combined with mythologies learned through enculturation and socialization."
This is not the case in Jehovah's Organization. It's something a person has to investigate themselves. Some of Jehovah's Witnesses have confirmed the existence of God by coming to an accurate knowledge of truth and have later rebelled.
w94 7/1 p. 11 par. 10 At Which Table Are You Feeding?
As a result, whatever they had developed of the new personality is gone. What motivates them is, not holy spirit, but vitriolic bitterness. They are obsessed with only one aim—beating their former fellow slaves, as Jesus foretold.—Matthew 24:48, 49. -
168
Jehovah correcting the organization
by sabastious inread the account of moses taking the credit for the water provision miracle and that of king david's folly and his consequences.. ...read them.... ...you are still reading.... ...ok now you have that fresh in your mind.. jehovah had a correctional arrangement in place for all his spokesmen.
story of jonah would work great too.
the point being that in the bible god has always had this correctional arrangement for the leaders of his earthly organization.. that being said, where did that arrangement go?
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alice.in.wonderland
FACT: The governing body claims to be the only channel of communication and mediation for all of mankind today.
FACT: At the same time, they claim to be fallible and imperfect.
How do you reconcile these two contradictory statements, Alice?
This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-7
It clearly states here who the mediator between God and man is. The faithful and discreet slave simply claims to be a teacher of the nations in matters of faith and truth. -
168
Jehovah correcting the organization
by sabastious inread the account of moses taking the credit for the water provision miracle and that of king david's folly and his consequences.. ...read them.... ...you are still reading.... ...ok now you have that fresh in your mind.. jehovah had a correctional arrangement in place for all his spokesmen.
story of jonah would work great too.
the point being that in the bible god has always had this correctional arrangement for the leaders of his earthly organization.. that being said, where did that arrangement go?
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alice.in.wonderland
je p. 26 Shepherding God’s Flock in Unity
The Governing Body consists of a group of anointed Christian men (13 in 1986), including 7 serving on the board of directors of the Watch Tower Society. These preside over the worldwide activities of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are not inspired by God and hence are not infallible, but they rely on God’s infallible Word as the highest authority on earth, and have a lifetime of experience in submitting to God’s will. Each has a record of more than 40 years in the full-time ministry with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Must you ppl become a lying sac of car parts to make whatever your case is? If you disagree with Bible teachings, nuff said. I would just leave at that. Creating fiction isn't going to help. -
168
Jehovah correcting the organization
by sabastious inread the account of moses taking the credit for the water provision miracle and that of king david's folly and his consequences.. ...read them.... ...you are still reading.... ...ok now you have that fresh in your mind.. jehovah had a correctional arrangement in place for all his spokesmen.
story of jonah would work great too.
the point being that in the bible god has always had this correctional arrangement for the leaders of his earthly organization.. that being said, where did that arrangement go?
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alice.in.wonderland
The Law covenant between Jehovah and the nation of natural Israel was replaced in the first century.
it-1 p. 524 Covenant
New Covenant. Jehovah foretold the new covenant by the prophet Jeremiah in the seventh century B.C.E., stating that it would not be like the Law covenant, which Israel broke. (Jer 31:31-34) On the night before his death, Nisan 14, 33 C.E., when he established the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus Christ announced the new covenant, to be validated by his sacrifice. (Lu 22:20) On the 50th day from his resurrection and 10 days after he had ascended to his Father, he poured out the holy spirit, which he had received from Jehovah, on his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem.—Ac 2:1-4, 17, 33; 2Co 3:6, 8, 9; Heb 2:3, 4.
The parties to the new covenant are Jehovah, on one side, and “the Israel of God,” the spirit-begotten ones in union with Christ, making up his congregation or body, on the other side. (Heb 8:10; 12:22-24; Ga 6:15, 16; 3:26-28; Ro 2:28, 29) The new covenant is made operative by the shed blood (the sacrifice of the human life) of Jesus Christ, the value of which was presented to Jehovah after Jesus’ ascension to heaven. (Mt 26:28) When one is selected by God for the heavenly calling (Heb 3:1), God brings that one into His covenant over Christ’s sacrifice. (Ps 50:5; Heb 9:14, 15, 26) Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the new covenant (Heb 8:6; 9:15) and is the primary Seed of Abraham. (Ga 3:16) By means of Jesus’ mediatorship of the new covenant, he assists those in the covenant to become part of the real seed of Abraham (Heb 2:16; Ga 3:29) through forgiveness of their sins. Jehovah declares them righteous.—Ro 5:1, 2; 8:33; Heb 10:16, 17.
What kind of distinct separation of powers, to prevent the abuse of power existed amongst the first century Christians that is any different than what exists in Jehovah's Organazation in our time? There are checks and balances throughout Jehovah's Organization although the Governing Body has very little power because like the first century Christians, they don't ally themselves with the secular authorities nor does anyone in Bethal receive any more money than anyone else of ever use money that goes into the organization to purchase luxury items.
If one of the members of the Governing Body was to go astray as did Ray Franz it's exposed and visible for everyone to see.
The “faithful and discreet slave class” doesn't make the papal claim of infallibility. Where have they overstepped their God-given boundaries or authorities?
“By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today” means moving in the direction of rebellion, not addressing any questions or doubts a person may have. This is admonition, not an invasion of free-will. Rebelling against God's visible organization is in effect rebelling against God because no other organization teaches the truth about God and his purposes. In reality, a person is free to do anything they want as you obviously have. -
203
Questions for BANE, SCHOLAR, and All Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped inyou don't have to answer all of them at once.
i would be happy to see your answers to any of these questions.. remember, the inspired apostle peter gave this direction in the holy scriptures: "always [be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.
" (1st peter 3:15).
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alice.in.wonderland
For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. Hebrews 6:4-6
"This leads to the conclusion that only annointed members of the faithful and discrete slave class could become apostates. Only the annointed receive the holy spirit. Only the annointed are qualified to taste the fine word of God; the other flock needs the slave class to feed them this spiritual food. The other flock cannot fall away from what they never were part of, therefore, they could not become apostates by this definition.
Very few of us are or ever were annointed members of the slave class. Some of us are not even among the "other flock". In light of this, is it appropriate to refer to all of us as "apostates"?"
The only thing that applies specifically to the anointed is “have tasted the heavenly free gift.” The Christian Greek scriptures was written to the anointed because only the anointed were in the Christian congregation in the first century C.E. but the principle still applies to the great crowd of other sheep.
w69 8/15 p. 511 Questions From Readers
Jewish religious leaders who came to Galilee to see and hear Jesus Christ on one occasion had already taken counsel as to how they might destroy him. (Matt. 12:14) In Galilee they saw Jesus cure a man who was unable to speak, was blind and demon-possessed. Instead of admitting the obvious fact, that Jesus was performing miracles by means of God’s holy spirit, the Pharisees maliciously accused him of doing it by means of the power of Satan. After showing how wrong they were, Jesus said:
“Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in the present system of things nor in that to come.”—Matt. 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28, 29; Luke 12:10.
With these religious leaders it was not just a case of failing to be convinced by Christ’s teachings and works. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida had been so preoccupied with their way of life that they did not accept Jesus and repent; yet they evidently will benefit from God’s mercy and have a resurrection and a future opportunity to learn the way of righteousness. (Matt. 11:20-24) Nor with the Pharisees was it a matter of blaspheming and opposing true worshipers because of ignorance of God’s will. Saul of Tarsus had been such a man, but he was shown mercy and forgiven. (1 Tim. 1:13-16) Rather, these religious leaders were rotten in their hearts right to their core, and Jesus knew it. Unlike the common people, they had a considerable knowledge of God’s Word. Now they had seen an evident demonstration of God’s spirit. Nevertheless, they completely rejected what was accomplished by Jehovah’s spirit and blasphemously credited Jesus’ miracles to Satan’s power. How bad could one get?
Was their sin serious? Jesus, “knowing their thoughts,” realized that they were deliberately—with their eyes wide open to the facts—sinning against knowledge of the operation of the holy spirit. He indicated that they were “guilty of everlasting sin.” (Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:29) Because of the context of those words, and in view of the fact that Jesus later said that many religious leaders of that time were headed for eternal destruction in Gehenna, it seems that they had committed the unforgivable sin. (Matt. 23:15, 33) Their sin was unforgivable, not because Jehovah is not a forgiving God, but because they were past repentance and beyond being retrieved. Their sin left them in total infidelity as to the real worship of Jehovah. Even in the system of things to come, one guilty of such sin could not be forgiven.
Could one sin against the holy spirit today, and thus be beyond forgiveness? Yes, that is possible. A person could become so hopelessly corrupt in mind and heart as to carry sin to the point of sinning against the spirit. And one need not be a spirit-anointed Christian to do so. Remember that those Pharisees were not anointed Christians and yet they committed unforgivable sin. -
203
Questions for BANE, SCHOLAR, and All Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped inyou don't have to answer all of them at once.
i would be happy to see your answers to any of these questions.. remember, the inspired apostle peter gave this direction in the holy scriptures: "always [be] ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.
" (1st peter 3:15).
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alice.in.wonderland
“The facts show that during this time and up to the present hour the “slave” class has served as God’s sole collective channel for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth. Just as the early Christian congregation collectively served as the channel of communication from heaven to earth, so in our time. (Eph. 3:10) Abundant spiritual food and amazing details as to the doing of God’s will have been flowing through this unique channel actually as a miraculous evidence of the operation of holy spirit.”
The “faithful and discreet slave” doesn't just consist of the Governing Body. There's quite a few individuals on the Watchtower writing committee. The only difference between them and others in Jehovah's Organization is they research the Bible and how it relates to history, the future, science and other aspects of society on a full time basis and have been doing so for quite some time. How do you think a “channel of communication” for Bible interpretation should work itself out?
Other churches teach the same thing but through their actions identify themselves as false prophets.
“Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those [men]. Matthew 7:15-20
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htmRevelation may be defined as the communication of some truth by God to a rational creature through means which are beyond the ordinary course of nature.
The truths revealed may be such as are otherwise inaccessible to the humanmind — mysteries, which even when revealed, the intellect of man is incapable of fully penetrating. But Revelation is not restricted to these. God may see fit to employ supernatural means to affirm truths, the discovery of which is not per se beyond the powers of reason. The essence of Revelation lies in the fact that it is the direct speech of God to man. The mode of communication, however, may be mediate. Revelation does not cease to be such if God's message is delivered to us by a prophet, who alone is the recipient of the immediate communication. Such in brief is the account of Revelation given in the Constitution "De Fide Catholica" of the Vatican Council. The Decree "Lamentabili" (3 July, 1907), by its condemnation of a contrary proposition, declares that the dogmas which the Church proposes as revealed are "truths which have come down to us from heaven" (veritates e coelo delapsoe) and not "an interpretation of religious facts which the humanmind has acquired by its own strenuous efforts" (prop., 22). It will be seen that Revelation as thus explained differs clearly from:
- inspiration such as is bestowed by God on the author of a sacred book; for this, while involving a special illumination of the mind in virtue of which the recipient conceives such thoughts as God desires him to commit to writing, does not necessarily suppose a supernatural communication of these truths;
- from the illustrations which God may bestow from time to time upon any of the faithful to bring home to the mind the import of some truth of religion hitherto obscurely grasped; and,
- from the Divine assistance by which the pope when acting as the supreme teacher of the Church, is preserved from all error as to faith or morals. The function of this assistance is purely negative: it need not carry with it any positive gift of light to the mind. Much of the confusion in which the discussion of Revelation in non-Catholic works is involved arises from the neglect to distinguish it from one or other of these.
http://niv.scripturetext.com/mark/8.htm
Catholics believe that Peter’s confession of Christ in the Gospel passage in Mark 8 and apostolic succession confirms the teaching authority of the Pope and Bishops in matters of faith and morals over other religions and at the same time deny the apostolic succession they claim in their own words:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02429a.htm
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia and other sources, Benedict IX was around 18 to 20 years old when made pontiff, although some sources claim 11 or 12. He reportedly led an extremely dissolute life, and also allegedly had few qualifications for the papacy other than connections with a socially powerful family, although in terms of theology and the ordinary activities of the Church he was entirely orthodox. St. Peter Damian described him as "feasting on immorality" and "a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest" in the Liber Gomorrhianus. The Catholic Encyclopedia calls him "a disgrace to the Chair of Peter."
Protestants have referred to the drunken prostitute in Revelation as the Roman Catholic Church even though Protestants share the same record of bloodshed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon
Historicist interpreters commonly used the phrase "Whore of Babylon" to refer to the Roman Catholic Church. Most Reformation writers and all Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther(1483-1546) (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin(1509-1564), and John Knox(1510-1572) (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) accepted this association. The "drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs," by this interpretation, refers to the inquisition and the veneration of saints and relics and the Sunday sacredness, were viewed by Reformers as idolatry and apostasy. This interpretation continues to be taught in churches arising from the Adventist movement and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick.