Wendy,
Well said.
Farkel
Being a guy, but wanting to express my feelings, I’ll just say what Wendy said goes for me too.
Jst2laws
i responded to your comments on another post, but i feel this issue is just too important and deserves its own thread.. -----------------------------------------------------.
: even the most righteous believer of god would tend to quote abraham: is the judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?
(gen 18:25).
Wendy,
Well said.
Farkel
Being a guy, but wanting to express my feelings, I’ll just say what Wendy said goes for me too.
Jst2laws
alex was asking about how the org is structured.
i could detail the lower levels but got lost around do and bethel elder onwards.
can anyone who knows fill in some more, please?.
Seeker,
Great response. But I think I identified myself in part of that
JW Hierarchy. How many times do I have to resign?
Jst2laws
i gather that most on this forum would agree that jehovah's witneeses do not have the truth they cliam to have.. but to what degree do we inform friends and relatives who are still belivers of this.. for many (assuming they come to the same conclution) it would come as a relief , but for others could it do more harm than good?.
for instance an elder in my hall recently died from cancer which he had suffered from for about a year.. what kept him going and happy through pain and suffering was the belief that he was in the true religion favored by god and would recieve a resurection.. imagine the heart break he would had suffered if people had convinced him that the society was a sham.. imagine others say like my parents who are in their 50's and have no pension who look forward to the future paradise.. would it be right for me to covince them that thier dreams for for future are all flawed.. i am still in my 20's and i'm not the type to get depreesed and all that, but i have to admit to being gutted when the truth dawned on me that all my hopeds and beliefs were likely wrong.. but can we be certain to such an absolute degree that all that witnesses belive is false?.
do we really have the right to preach with coviction to others that they are wrong, just like we preached when we belived?.
Hello Sleepy
You have some valid points. However, conscience will likely force all of us to do something with what we know. The question may be what do we do with this information, and what is our goal.
As to What we do with this information, I believe we have an obligation to share it. Just like a child playing in the street needs to be educated about cars, we have to help these friends and relatives you mentioned. But this fact must be weighed against the reality that sometimes the truth itself causes harm.
How you share the facts will have something to do with it, but likely people you love will come to hate you. Then some you reach will go through the inevitable depression.
My eighty year old mother has cancer. Last visit she read part of Karl Olof Johnsson’s work. She put it away saying she felt “safe with the society”. She was afraid, at this point in her life to risk her security. I am compelled to leave her with that.
As to What is our purpose? Hopefully we are motivated by love. I fear that even people who love sometimes get obsessed with the importance of their own beliefs. The desire to convincing others we are right about our convictions I feel is a motive that can be harmful. Crusading with “the Truth” is what we are fleeing from. This needs to be balanced with intuitive concern for the persons needs.
So Sleepy, should we try to "get people out of the org"? We should try to keep innocent children out of a busy street. But here we are ussually dealing with adults. Perhaps getting them educated is our only obligation, leaving 'getting out' to them. I think your caution is warranted, but surely we can not justify silence.
Jst2laws
i responded to your comments on another post, but i feel this issue is just too important and deserves its own thread.. -----------------------------------------------------.
: even the most righteous believer of god would tend to quote abraham: is the judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?
(gen 18:25).
Hello Lauralisa,
Qoute
” There is at one end the purists' "letter of the law" and at the other, the "spirit of the law". The degree to which love [LOVE: definition unavailable at this time] alters perceptions and balances differences between disparate lines of reasoning is another interesting thing to observe.” .....……“. I haven't thrown the bible out of the window yet; I truly wish to comprehend it, and welcome anyone's insights whether I agree with them or not so that I have all that much more to go on to try and reason on things.”
I liked your thoughts and agree. If you still have a respect for the Bible, you will remember Jesus favored the “spirit of the law”. Even more than that “he came to fulfil the law and the prophets”. I believe that is the heart of understanding these things. I am not in a position to answer all the questions that will come up but believe they can be answered if viewed in the right spirit.
I hope you find friends who will support you in your new life.
Jst2laws
i responded to your comments on another post, but i feel this issue is just too important and deserves its own thread.. -----------------------------------------------------.
: even the most righteous believer of god would tend to quote abraham: is the judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?
(gen 18:25).
Hey, Farkel,
You had to grab me on a tough issue. To defend God’s fairness here against your wit will make me feel a little like the Pork sausage at a Jewish picnic. So I am going to try to avoid appearing to do so, even if I thought I could defend him.
The quote you brought up was meant to sympathize with one who I suspected could not see justification for the suffering we face. I feel the same. If I had the power to stop this I would, as you and most here would. But what if the record was included as part of God’s word for the same reason I quoted it, to sympathize with those who cannot justify the hurt in their own lives.
Qoute
“WHY did a paltry human like Abraham have to ASK God to for HIM do what was RIGHT? Read the whole 18th chapter. Abraham asked God that question a BUNCH of times. Why? Why didn't God know what was "right" in the first place? HE set up the rules about "right" and "wrong" and now we have a human begging him to play by rules that a human KNEW was right, yet God didn't seem to get it until he was persuaded to do so by Abraham.”
What if the account, or most of the Hebrew Scriptures, were not meant to be taken so literal, but just a record of the perception of God of the time. Then the lesson would be ‘No, God will not destroy even one righteous person’.
Quote
“HE set up the rules about "right" and "wrong" and now we have a human begging him to play by rules that a human KNEW was right, yet God didn't seem to get it until he was persuaded to do so by Abraham.”
What if all the Hebrew drama was to show what God DID NOT WANT. The sacrifices of Abel and Enoch were not required by God. The Kingdom was not what God wanted. Even the law of Moses was a “burden” (Acts 15:10) on the people God new was futile when He gave it to them. But it was a lesson or “tutor leading to Christ”. What if all the other experiences recorded in the Hebrew scripts were just a lesson of what God did not want?
So there I go, sounding like I’m trying to defend God’s record in the Hebrew scriptures. You and AlanF, JanH and others can defeat me at this. Remember, a few months ago I was making shepherding calls as an appointed servant in the organization. You have been preparing your stand for, what, almost thirty years.
So be kind, and please don’t argue technical points of the Hebrew scripts with me. I’m more into the purpose and concept of the record.
Jst2laws
yeah, like these guys never make appointments.
just stroll up when it suits them and not you.
is it ignorance or simply a matter of discourtesy?
Jst2laws
I sympathize with your reluctance to deal with them. At this point I to would dread seeing them pull up in front of my home. I’m not spiritually sick, I don’t mind missing meeting, and the only regularity I’m concerned with is none of their business.
But 6 months ago I too was alert to finding friends I was concerned about whenever I could come across them. There are some among those men who have good motives. Those might be dealt with by a firm and confident “I’m OK! And please don’t worry about me. I want to be left alone now.”
On the other hand, if they suspect you are disloyal, look out. The Gestapo type often volunteer and will seek you out like a hungry hound on a rabbit’s trail. Still no need to be belligerent, but time to take charge.
Just remember, not every one of these guys is out to harm, but most may be dangerous.
Jst2laws
i've received numerous questions asking for documentation of issues raised on this board.
some threads have gems that get developed, then buried, and someone raises the same question.
cd roms whirr.. for some ray franz is more than sufficient, others also enjoy the perspective of "apocalypse delayed" by trained historian james penton, which was vital to me personally.
Maximus,
This is a “meticulous documentation of the organization, from the standpoint of a professional scholar”? Sounds GOOD to me. Keep us posted when it is available.
Jst2laws
Oh, Farkel,
You seem to be as sentimental and emotional as I am. I suspect the God I believe in feels the same way about the mess we’re in. Whether a He is a “Dirtbag”, “turd bucket”, “impotent or lazy” or “doesn’t give a S…..” will only be known sometime in the future. I have the same emotions, but without such certainty as to who to blame. The only difference, Fark, is if your right I will be disappointed. If I’m right, no one will be disappointed. But right now I’m in no state of mind to debate.
Jst2laws
Dear Wendy,
I would have responded sooner, but I could not see the keys on my keyboard through these eyes.
Quote: My child is hurt, she will die young. I don't speak of this often, only when it is heavy on my heart. Today is one of those days. I do not understand, why a god would create her to have her taken from me. What lesson have I not learned, where have I gone wrong? Why would a god of love require me to learn a lesson? Would he not give her to me to love and cherish with no strings attached?”
Wendy, you are suffering what I doubt I could bear. Even the most righteous believer of God would tend to quote Abraham: “Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right?” (Gen 18:25) I am not going to try to tell you this is right, it is WRONG. Is God responsible or in “control”? I’m not getting into that at this time. If the God I believe in exits, he will even let you blame him if it helps you through this. I personally will support you no matter what you believe. We are not made to go through something like this. I believe there are answers to your questions, but I would be an idiot to try to change your mind at this moment if you have found comfort in what you believe. E-mail me if you wish to talk.
Jst2laws
Amazing
Quote “But what of the hundreds of millions who were not so lucky to hear from God, or be sustained through trials? What of those who under such dire circumstances were left out in the cold, with nowhere to turn? “
Sadly, I have no insite on that thought at this time. I was not commenting so much on this matter as reacting to Wendy’s thoughts. I have been away for a while and will try to catch up.
Without knowledge of the issues, I will reluctantly say:
There is no justice in this life. The Psalms said ‘70 or 80 years, but their insistence is on trouble and hurtful things’. While the degree of this reality varies wildly from person to person seemingly without regard who they are or what kind of person they are, this is what God tells us to expect in this life. Give me a clue where this thread is coming from and I will try to respond more specifically. Please be patient with me.
Jst2laws