Posts by jst2laws

8

An email to a new person in "the truth"

by biblexaminer in

i wanted to share a few points from an email that i recently sent to a very sincere person.

i think this has value for the dub neophytes in the crowd who lurk here.. to those newbies who, despite having found out plenty about the watchtower, still continue your study and attendance at meetings, i leave you these thoughts.. i understand your thinking, more than you know.

when you take a look at the various churches around, there's not much to offer.

jst2laws

biblexaminer,

I admire you devotion to rescuing. Keep up the good work.

Jst2laws

9

Part IV, Why Believe in God?

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

in preparing this section it got too long so i have decided to break it into two sections.

why believe in god, part iv.

if you have read each of this series you have seen i am taking more of a scientific/philosophical look at belief in god or the lack of.

jst2laws

Marvin,

“We will not PROVE there is a place called heaven because there is no literal, physical place.”

I'm not saying what the 'word' heaven represents does not exist. I suggesting it is not a place in the physical sense anymore than the "thrown" is a literal thrown. I feel there is very little separation from the physical universe and what we refer to as the spiritual world.
I will try to explain:

What we perceive to be matter is not really particles of STUFF. The components of atoms, as I understand it, are not little particle of matter but little bits of energy, or even energy potentials. I have read an atom's nucleus could be compared to a grapefruit and a few miles away would be the electrons about the size of a pea. While these energy potentials theoretically race around the nucleus what is in between is nothing, just space. So all matter is really some very small bits of organized energy in a great void of empty space. We only perceive this composition as matter because of the way other energies, such as light, interact with it and we detect it in our wonderful sensors, our eyes.

With just that thought, what if God and all others in the spirit world (HEAVEN) are living creatures with spirit bodies that are similar, bits of organized energy but arranged in a manner that they do not amount to what we call matter, we do not detect with our eyes, ears or sense of touch. If that were to be true (leap) then heaven would not have to be a place inside or outside our physical universe, but could exist parallel with it. What ever the case I personally do not think of it a "place".

Definitely not an issue to try and prove, just a thought.

Jst2laws

23

Homepage Now up

by Amazing in

jw
friends

hello all: okay, its time to start coming out of the closet.

my homepage is now up.

you can click on the little blue globe with the red arrow, in the upper left corner, in my profile.

jst2laws

Hey Amazing,

Its about time. I came too late to read all of the justice series. I hope thats what you plan to put in the WT justice section.

Looking forward to reading more.

Jst2laws

13

Final Part, Why Believe in God?

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

why believe in god, final part .

bear with me a moment while i inter the forbidden territory of explaining what i believe to be the spiritual message.. everything in the hebrew scriptures are an object lesion to show us what god does not want.

able and cain offered sacrifices as well as noah without god asking for it.

jst2laws

Hello Marvin,

Yes, that is a fair summary. I seem to have spent more time on why the demand for "evidence" should not be allowed to invalidate belief in God than I intended. But then, to spend too much time on what might appear to be evangelizing would not go over too well.

Much more could have been said, but it was good to get my own thoughts organized on the issues.

Thanks for responding, Marvin.

Jst2laws

13

Final Part, Why Believe in God?

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

why believe in god, final part .

bear with me a moment while i inter the forbidden territory of explaining what i believe to be the spiritual message.. everything in the hebrew scriptures are an object lesion to show us what god does not want.

able and cain offered sacrifices as well as noah without god asking for it.

jst2laws

Why Believe in God, Final part

Bear with me a moment while I inter the forbidden territory of explaining what I believe to be the spiritual message.

Everything in the Hebrew scriptures are an object lesion to show us what God does not want. Able and Cain offered sacrifices as well as Noah without God asking for it. He never wanted this. He gave Israel a King and a kingdom against his own will (1 Sam. 5). He gave bloody victory to the Jews at wars, although He himself hates violence. (Ps.11:5) Why did God, Jehovah, manifest in the Hebrew scriptures do things that He did not want to do? To serve as an object lesion that would point to the real thing. All the disturbing events of the Old Testament are fulfilled and explained, even cancelled in the life, death and message of a man who claimed to have come in God’s name, the mirror or image of the True God.

This man did not establish a religion, nor create an organization to replace the nation of Israel. He did not establish any rules except to love God and to love people (after loving yourself). Although he claimed to be assigned as judge of the world, he condemned no one except religious leaders who controlled and condemned others. He recognized we were burdened down and oppressed. He recognized the source of the oppression. RELIGION!

He offered relief. As if to say shed that oppressive yoke religion has put on you, he said “take my yoke, for my yoke is kindly and my load is light.” Of course it is light – shed the burdens of organized religion and settle into a comfortable relationship with, not Jehovah (name never used by Jesus), but with a father.

I do not need proof of his miracles or even proof of his existence. I believe his message. It suits me, liberates me and gives me the sense that there is “something out there”.

Much more could be said, but you’re probably saying enough already! I welcome your comments.

Jst2laws

Of the semi-philosopher, looking for abuse class

9

Part IV, Why Believe in God?

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

in preparing this section it got too long so i have decided to break it into two sections.

why believe in god, part iv.

if you have read each of this series you have seen i am taking more of a scientific/philosophical look at belief in god or the lack of.

jst2laws

Syn,

I'm not sure you are reading my posts or else you just do not understand. My wife says you are projecting your impressions into my posts rather than getting the point.

No offense taken, but I have not said what seem to think I am saying.

Jst2laws

9

Part IV, Why Believe in God?

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

in preparing this section it got too long so i have decided to break it into two sections.

why believe in god, part iv.

if you have read each of this series you have seen i am taking more of a scientific/philosophical look at belief in god or the lack of.

jst2laws

In preparing this section it got too long so I have decided to break it into two sections.

WHY BELIEVE IN GOD, PART IV

If you have read each of this series you have seen I am taking more of a scientific/philosophical look at belief in God or the lack of. I hope I have cast some doubt on the inappropriateness of using hyperbolic doubt to invalidated the existence of God. This scientific method has its place in the physical world of intangibles such as components of the atom, of organisms or makeup of the universe, especially with the use of the tool of modern mathematics. There are other intangibles, however, that cannot be proven by a mathematic formula such as love, sense of family responsibility, self esteem or lack there of.

Another intangible is the existence of God. Mankind, even Bible writers, literalized our impression of God with words such as: Father, Son, a Thrown, a place He lives called Heaven. This may have helped early, or simple mankind, to relate to a superior Being but for the “enlightened” world it has lead many to believe we should be able to test God’s existence by the Cartesian method as if these things were literal.

Because these images are not literal, we cannot test them by the scientific method. We will not PROVE there is a place called heaven because there is no literal, physical place. We will not discover an old bearded man sitting on a throne nor find angels with wings. These are only images created by men to convey a thought, a spiritual message.

If we can dispense with the literal imaging and look instead for its purpose, a spiritual message, then we will no longer be looking for “proof” of existence or scientific evidence. What we will be left with is a spiritual CONCEPT, a BELIEF that is not of a literal nature and therefore cannot be tested by the tools of science.

FINALLY, WHY BELIEVE IN A SPIRITUAL MESSAGE, OR GOD

The following are illustrative.

Monogamy: Why is monogamy generally accepted (I understand nearly one third of the world allows for polygamy, but how do you women feel about that)? From where did this belief come? Why do most of us believe in momogamy? To even consider taking on another partner makes many if not most squirm. It is a belief that just FEELS right. Then we can observe the affects of ignoring this feeling and we see evidence (though not prove) that our belief is valid.

Responsibility to Children: Why do we feel a responsibility to family? Why do most feel we cannot spawn children and then walk away? One could say this is instinctive, not a belief. But even if this is so, what is an instinct, if not a sense of the way things should be, what is true and proper. If you want to say this is not a belief but it is programmed behavior, then you must prove this by the scientific method that such a literal program exists. Remember, the scientific method does not explain “values’ or “purpose”. (Part III)

Just as most of us share these beliefs, or values, many of us share a belief in a superior spiritual world. Back to the God Spot! (Part I) As Abaddon expressed in Part I this could be something evolved to protect the species. But this cannot be “proven” by the scientific method anymore than God’s existence. Both explanations are simply CONFESSIONS – improvable beliefs.

Along with the above examples of concepts in which we believe without requiring a scientific test of validity, I believe there is something spiritual greater them myself.

WHY?

1 I SENSE MY SPIRITUAL NEED

I remember the story of the Russian scientist Dimitri Mendeleiv (father of the periodic chart) contemplating the relationship of the known elements of his time. He eventually realized there were relationships that could be grouped into families of elements. He, like many other seekers of the unproven, saw a harmony, a consistency that was beyond coincidence. He believed there was something there and published his beliefs only to receive the scorn of many of his contemporaries. He was, in just a few years, vindicated. However, those who believe in God cannot expect proof as did Mendeleiv. But many see enough evidence to believe there is something there, something as valid as our sense of monogamy and our care for our children.

2 I LIKE THE SPIRITUAL MESSAGE

We have been hurt by religion. Not just the WT society has hurt mankind but all religion, especially fundamentalist religion such as the WT and extreme Islam, if not by orthodox religion as well. I suspect the world would be better off with no organized religion. As pointed out many times on this board the slogan “Religion is a Snare and a Racket” is probably the only thing J. F. Rutherford got right.

Another poster’s signature here was “Christianity is not a religion, but a relationship”. That is the message of the Bible. But a relationship with who, are what? Surely not the violent, jealous Jehovah of the Hebrew scriptures?

So if not a religion but a relationship, with what spiritual entity is the relationship to be established? What spiritual ‘message’ is of any value to modern society?

This will be addressed in the final part of this series soon to be posted.

Jst2laws

9

Part III, Why Believe in God

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

why believe in god, part iii .

in part ii i tried to explain how the method of hyperbolic doubt has affected modern societys thinking toward all things that can be doubted.

we have grown up in this society believing the modernist teaching that if it can not be proven it should be rejected.. therefore belief in god has been referred to as a matter of faith, as if to say it is most likely a fantasy.

jst2laws

Syn,

So you're going to let something written in a 2K year old book convince you that people walked on water and performed miracles?

You will notice I have not refer to any alleged miracles of Jesus nor even the bible as proof in this discussion. These would be of no proof to either you or myself.

If you examine the thread closely I am first questioning if the modern scientific method, while valid in examining the physical universe, can be used to invalidate none physical beliefs or values.

I will post Part V in a few minutes to continue, not a scriptural defense in belief in God, but a philosophic/scientific approach to the question.

Jst2laws

9

Part III, Why Believe in God

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

why believe in god, part iii .

in part ii i tried to explain how the method of hyperbolic doubt has affected modern societys thinking toward all things that can be doubted.

we have grown up in this society believing the modernist teaching that if it can not be proven it should be rejected.. therefore belief in god has been referred to as a matter of faith, as if to say it is most likely a fantasy.

jst2laws

SixofNine,

I'm not speaking authoritatively. From the start of this series I have tried to express my feelings and "knowledge".

I said as you quoted

The only people who did not like what they saw in Jesus were the RELIGIOUS LEADERS.

In its context I am talking of people contemporary to Jesus, such as the religious leaders of his time. You say I have not the authority?
Since when is authority required to express ones opinion? Nor the 'knowledge to make that statement'. I would not question your authority or knowledge, but since you have questione mine, what is your evidence?

Jst2laws

9

Part III, Why Believe in God

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

why believe in god, part iii .

in part ii i tried to explain how the method of hyperbolic doubt has affected modern societys thinking toward all things that can be doubted.

we have grown up in this society believing the modernist teaching that if it can not be proven it should be rejected.. therefore belief in god has been referred to as a matter of faith, as if to say it is most likely a fantasy.

jst2laws

Rem,

Very good! LOL. I can not, even with the Cartesian method, disprove the existence of Purple Gnomes. If you are anyone else finds comfort in the belief in Purple Gnomes, with or without a millenniums old holy writings of the Purple Gnomes, I expect the consequence of yielding to this deity will be less harmful than what we went through with our WT experience.

What you have brought up though may be worth discussing sometime. That is our perception of God. A Purple Gnome is funny, but not far off from a bearded old man on a celestial thrown. Perhaps an angry faced autocrat shooting lightning from his fingers at people who displease him. Bible writers tried to literalize God. We try to picture him, it, she into something we can related to.

Yet Jesus said 'if you have seen me you have seen the father'. The only people who did not like what they saw in Jesus were the RELIGIOUS LEADERS. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Purple Gnome in the sky hates the WT and all religion as much as we do but for good reasons does not interfere.

Don't ask me to proof it. But wouldn't it be a nice concept if it were true?

Jst2laws