Posts by jst2laws

20

Faith V Works.....my 2 cents..

by TheApostleAK in

jw
friends

so what you guys are saying is that i can beat & rape my wife, bash my children, break the law, be a violent drunk, and as long as i have faith that jesus christ was the messiah and have faith in jehovah god, i can still be declared righteous????.

read carefully james 2:14-24. or don't you understand it or don't believe it?.

abraham and rahab were both declared righteous because of their works because they both had faith.. "faith accompanied by works"

jst2laws

hi again Crossroads,

>"If you think rebuking someone shortly before they die is a
"good work". I'm sure McVieh will be happy to respond
favorably to any and all rebukes you would like to give him."

I dont think anyone is saying this amounted to a valid "work" that would nullify his past nor justify him or McVieh with God. The words he spoke has little or no value except for what it indicates about the individuals faith. It is the FAITH that saves us, the works (even if very small)simple prove the faith or complete it.

18 "Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works." .... 20 .. faith apart from works is inactive? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works AFTER he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that [his] faith worked along with his works and by [his] works [his] faith was perfected" James 2:18-22

"By his works his faith was perfected". The Greek word tanslated "perfected" literally means 'completed'. Cant have one without the other. The evil doer did not EARN anything with that one good deed before dying,he simply demonstrated the one thing God required to be justified with him, Faith!!

Jst2laws

20

Faith V Works.....my 2 cents..

by TheApostleAK in

jw
friends

so what you guys are saying is that i can beat & rape my wife, bash my children, break the law, be a violent drunk, and as long as i have faith that jesus christ was the messiah and have faith in jehovah god, i can still be declared righteous????.

read carefully james 2:14-24. or don't you understand it or don't believe it?.

abraham and rahab were both declared righteous because of their works because they both had faith.. "faith accompanied by works"

jst2laws

Outnfree

>"I agree with Bigboi that faith impels one to do good works.
Crossroads and all,
I don't think the evil-doer was saved by faith only. As soon as the other criminal mocked Jesus, the FAITH of the evil-doer was clear:
"[He] spoke up and rebuked him. 'Have you no fear of God at all?' he said. ... 'Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.'" -- Luke 23:40-42, JB"

Excellent. When the thought was presented about the evildoer it was so simple I didn’t bother to look it up.
You have pointed out a valid detail. It would be very rare that a person would have no opportunity to demonstrate his faith. His was no great act nor sacrifice to speak up but it was a response of good words apparently from his heart.
Thanks for pointing that out
Jst2laws

20

Faith V Works.....my 2 cents..

by TheApostleAK in

jw
friends

so what you guys are saying is that i can beat & rape my wife, bash my children, break the law, be a violent drunk, and as long as i have faith that jesus christ was the messiah and have faith in jehovah god, i can still be declared righteous????.

read carefully james 2:14-24. or don't you understand it or don't believe it?.

abraham and rahab were both declared righteous because of their works because they both had faith.. "faith accompanied by works"

jst2laws

Hi Bigboi
>” Yes, from a technical view we can ascertain that there is nothing we can do to make ourselves righteous before God. However I feel we can do much to make that standing before God all the more sure. And of course we are not exempt from losing it either.”

Yes, that standing of righteousness is very insecure if the stand is not backed up with works demonstrating our faith and love. But since these works are not works of obedience to some code they must spring from the heart. Without actions motivated from the heart, our faith is dead. We may actually end up doing some of the things we resented others telling us to do, but now it will be works of faith rather than works of obedience. In this sense these works not only “make that standing before God all the more sure”, they are vital to the “standing”.

AK, hello again,
Crossroads made a beautiful, and simply stated point. And you got it right, that man had no opportunity to demonstrate his faith, but he had it at his death. If he would have somehow survived that day, he hopefully would have left the “dead works” of justification by living up to a code and demonstrated his faith in the ransom and the message of Jesus by his spontaneous actions showing faith and love.(Rom 3:27)

If it sounds like I love this subject, your right. Thanks for the posts

Jst2laws

20

Faith V Works.....my 2 cents..

by TheApostleAK in

jw
friends

so what you guys are saying is that i can beat & rape my wife, bash my children, break the law, be a violent drunk, and as long as i have faith that jesus christ was the messiah and have faith in jehovah god, i can still be declared righteous????.

read carefully james 2:14-24. or don't you understand it or don't believe it?.

abraham and rahab were both declared righteous because of their works because they both had faith.. "faith accompanied by works"

jst2laws

Hello AK
I believe it is not that hard to define what is meant by faith and works. Please bear with me while I attemp.
Faith, ‘assured expectation of things not beheld’ covers a host of expectations. In the faith vs. works debate you have to look at WHAT works. The issue up to Jesus’ time was works of Justification with God by means of sacrifices and laws contained in the Hebrew scriptures. This is what Paul is speaking of almost exclusively in Romans, Galatians and the book of Hebrews. The entire message of the Hebrew scriptures was an extensive codification of what works man must do to get right with God. Jesus arrived and ‘fulfilled’ the law with his payment of his life to end all that old law code.

So Paul’s message was by ‘works no man can get right with God’.

Rom 3:27-28
27 Then what can we boast about doing to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him. 28 So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.
TLB

It is a wonderful thought isn’t it, to think we don’t have to do anything to get right with God. It’s a free gift he gives us. All us former guilt stricken victims of the ‘Your Not Good Enough Unless’ religions, can throw our arms up and say “its over, my dark quest for justification is finished, I am right with God.”

So now lets suppose we have that faith. But we have friends who are still enslaved to the ‘Your Not Good Enough Unless’ religions? Do we have LOVE for them? Can we keep quiet? Will not your faith and love move you to share this good news with them? (Rom. 10:9-15) If you did not and your friends later learned this good news from someone else, wouldn’t they question why you did nothing? If a person says they love someone but never spoke to them, help them or rescue them when in need, wouldn’t it appear that their claim is false or their love is dead. In this context it would also appear their Faith was dead. You see, these are works of a totally different nature. Works of love and faith are from a completely different motivation.

I hope this helps show there is no conflict, AK. I am working on more on this subject and will later provide a website for your review.

I would be glad to hear form you.

Jst2laws

editted fore speling

7

'Wounds of a Friend'June 15 WT 2001

by ISP in

jw
friends

this is from the back cover of the june 15 wt entitled the wounds of a friend.

it highlights the usual double-standards........ .

the apostle paul saw the need to administer some correction to first-century christians in galatia.

jst2laws

Hello ISp,
Good point. I have got to say though, you are probably the WT societies most loyal reader. Keep up the good work. I'm getting so dependant on your reviews I'm inclined to quit reading it myself.
jst2laws

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

jst2laws

Hello Terraly

Boy, am I getting an education. My first post here was Is there no good in the WTBTS? I felt like a democrat at a republican political campaign. Now I find myself in a debate Is there no good in the Bible. But I’m relieved to find I’m not alone this time. Come to think of it I wasn’t alone last time.

Your comments were fair and reasonable and appreciated.

One more freedom I would like add to yours is freedom from oppressive religion. True, Christains have been oppressive, but not because Jesus taught them to be so. In fact the first century writings constantly warned us to avoid making rules nor allow ourselves to come under rules.

*** Rbi8 Galatians 5:18 ***
18 Furthermore, if YOU are being led by spirit, YOU are not under law.

*** Rbi8 Hebrews 5:14 ***
14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong

*** Rbi8 Galatians 5:1 ***
5 For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.

True, Paul was talking mostly about the laws of the Hebrew Scritptures, but if those laws were not to be imposed, what religious laws could legitimately replace them? NONE.

Norm makes the point that this freedom is an ‘Obey or Die’ kind of freedom. But are we not all dying anyway? And what does he want us to obey? JUST TWO LAWS. I find this liberating.

Jst2laws

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

jst2laws

SixofNine

That is just the point, “all people’s view of God” has been molded by controlling religionist, has it not?
I know we could argue a few scriptures such ‘we must be perfect just as He is perfect’ yet the Hebrew and Greek words translated simply mean “complete”, not absolute. Complete and meeting a purpose is attainable without obsessing of matters.

Your phrase “Grandiose in Good” I like because Goodness is identified as superior to even “righteousness” in the Bible.(Rom 5:6) If we get back to basics maybe we can reject all we have ‘bought into’ and see God is not so unattainable.

Btw, SixofNine, you responded faster than I could get back to the page and see if the post had registered!. How do you do it?

Jst2laws

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

jst2laws

Norm,

Although we are on differing sides in this debate you have been thoughtful. Years ago I enjoyed intense debates. Strange thing is the debates were at Bethel on matters that would now get me DF’d. But I have changed and now prefer calm mutual sharing of thoughts. So please forgive me if I disappoint you with my none line-by-line response.

At this point I would like to focus on the fact that we are apparently both on the same cause. Is it not true that we are in favor of freeing victims from the oppressive control of organized religion? If so perhaps we should save our energy (mine is limited) for that cause. I understand I may sometimes sound like an evangelist and that must raise flags. But my focus as you see from these posts is freedom, not control. I suppose it is very unusual for anyone to express his views on the Bible without eventually becoming dogmatic, but if I succumb to this error at least I will become dogmatic for freedom.

As to the shortfalls of the Bible, I am not going to be dogmatic about that either. As I am not into absolutes of any kind, I do not feel God is into them either. It appears to me that the Hebrew scripture drama was in part a lesson from God in the inadequacy of law, legalism, and dogmatism. Then Jesus came as God’s rep. ending this drama teaching no laws, love and tolerance. The controlling religionist refused to learn the lesson and killed him. I’m sorry but I still see Jesus as the Greatest Teacher and I love the lesson.

But if the lesson is tolerance, love and freedom who would object except those into controlling others. This does not seem to be the case with either of us. But I recognize I have recently begun this journey and have a lot of growing to do. I appreciated most your comments:

“I think I might recognize the natural confusion we all suffer when we get our whole carefully constructed Watchtower house of cards blown away. It is a grueling task to make sense out of a lot of things after that. Don’t worry, eventually you will, take your time, make the mistakes you need to, and don’t be afraid of us, we will be here to help you.”

Thanks

Jst2laws

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

jst2laws

SixofNine

Quote:
“Funny, I can't help but think that is the one area of "freedom" that most of us, lovers of freedom one and all, would at any time be quite willing to give up.”

I understand, and wish it was different. I am not going to pretend to understand everything as our beloved Borg does. If anyone can add a reasonable explanation to help us understand why this was the only way for God to fix things we would all welcome it. All I can say at this point in my growth is that He knew he made us with a conscience and a sense of justice. That’s why we have problems with guilt and why we get baptized into Christ for a good conscience.(1 pet. 3:21)

God could have said, ‘OK, you are flaw but I am going to restore you. I will take a pigeon in exchange for you, a soul for a soul.’ What if he knew that would not satisfy our conscience, our sense of justice? Then we would still have a problem with our conscience. I fear our conscience is a key factor in all of this. Mankind started sacrificing things and animals out of OUR need, not from a command of God. Cultures that have nearly no rules to break seem to be healthier mentally. Could this be because with few rules there is little wrongdoing for which to feel bad about ourselves? I think fewer rules is good. No wonder we started out, according to the bible with no rules but one, and the bible says we will end up with one basic rule:

“For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14

But we have to get past our own conscience first, our sense of inadequacy with God. Paul calls this “justification” or being right with God. He gives it to us freely, and all we need is faith in the price paid by Jesus:

“Therefore, now that we have been declared righteous as a result of faith, let us enjoy peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” Romans 5:1

So I’m suggesting, only suggesting and looking for more from you, that God could have and would have handled us differently but was working with our own needs and limitations. It would be hard to live by that ‘law of love’ if we were constantly guilt stricken. It appears we only need to patiently wait till it is God’s time to bring this terrible drama to an end, apply the ransom, give us a good conscience and just standing before him and each other, then make right all the damage done in the past. And I agree, THIS REQUIRES FAITH!

Sorry if I sound preachy. Just sharing from my heart. Your turn to share if you like.

Jst2laws

22

Dominance, Control = Kingdom? .....NOT!

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

now jehovah is the spirit; and where the spirit of jehovah is, there is freedom 2 corinthians 3:17. i see a common attitude in ex-jws that i at one time would have said see, thats the way apostates are.

it is the mutual resentment of being controlled.

some might find this to be normal considering the abuse of authority most have survived.

jst2laws

Norm,
Thank you for your thoughts. As I explained in the past to Farkel I am not experience enough, young enough nor smart enough to respond line for line. I’m more into concepts then obsessing over technicalities. But admittedly technicalities are the foundation of concepts so I will try to address some of your issues.

Quote
”I think you have to come out and define what you understand to be freedom? I am extremely skeptic to the concept of “freedom” as it appears in the Bible.
Neither Jesus nor Paul seemed to have any real idea about what freedom is”.

Total freedom. Please do not judge me are my comments on the basis of what Christendom has said or done, nor by what the WT teaches. Neither of us go along with that. However, the freedom Jesus and Paul spoke of may have been different issues. Paul’s message was vital but limited to freedom from guilt and works of self justification, but in Hebrews he touched on the bigger issues of total freedom.

Quote
“According to the Bible Jesus told us that we had to “believe” in him or else. If we don’t we do not deserve to exist. So his freedom is “do as I say or burn in hell forever.” Paul’s message isn’t much better.”

Agreed, belief in him is necessary. Is this an infringement of freedom? What man is not dying. So here is someone saying reach out to me and I will pull you out of this. Are we going to resent his offer and complain he is telling us what to do?

As for “do as I say or burn in hell forever” respectfully Norm, I don’t see that in the Bible. I quoted earlier Mat 11:29 where Jesus implores us to accept relief. He agrees religion has oppressed us and offers “refreshment”.

Quote
“History show us that the Christianity has made overwhelmingly more problems than it has ever solved. The Watchtower Society has adopted Jesus idea and given it their own slant, they say “join our organization or die.” The Watchtower Society is also an excellent representative of the fundamentalist branch of Christendom in the sense that they have been able to stamp “problems” out of thin air, and found problems where non have existed”

We agree again. Although I have not separated myself from them I would not be here if I wanted to defend them. In an above post to Mommy I said, “they have made up a hierarchy that make the Pharisees look like passive liberals.”
The issues are what the Bible really says about freedom and how Jesus will bring this, not how abusers of authority have misrepresented it.

This is where I disagree with much of what Bishop Spong had to say.

His frequent references to Jesus belief in fiery Hell and torment is I believe a concept unsupported in scripture. I admit I’m relatively knew at looking at the scriptures with open eyes but it seems Biship Spong is arguing against flawed theology of Christendom rather than a flaw man. The teachings and the actions of professed Christians done in the name of Christ are not an indictment of Jesus but again an indictment of those who abuse authority in the name of God or Jesus.

If we take any man or work and pick at it we will find what appear to be flaws and contradictions. Bishop Spong will find flaws, another such as Gandhi will praise him. To kill a tree, destroy a herd of pigs for one mans freedom or finally in the last week of his life condemn his enemies knowing they are plotting to kill him does not destroy the substance of what he taught in my mind.

Quote
:“The Bible is an extremely unreliable source to use when it comes to freedom, moral and authority. Tales of atrocities and horror written by people steeped in the superstition they portray in the Bible are very poor guides to a better life. Mankind was slowly able to wrestle out of the stranglehold of Christendom by enlightenment and science, while fighting against a Church that wanted to kill all knowledge. Democracy, freedom and the way of life we enjoy today was opposed every inch by Christians and it still is in many parts of the world.”

Agree with all but first line, “The Bible is an extremely unreliable source to use when it comes to freedom, moral and authority”. The Hebrew scriptures is a discussion of its own. Nearly everything contained there is a model of what God does not want. Granted, if the accounts are historical, God authorized, even demanded a lot of disturbing behavior. But as to freedom, God let man choose his course and now it was a mess. Everything he did with the Jews was a drama of how not to find freedom from guilt, oppression and death. No wonder Jesus was so opposed when he came with an entirely different message. He was the Reality that their bloody history pointed to. All that experience was a “shadow” of what God really had in mind. (Col. 2:17) It was so radically different from what you and I object to that the people of his time feared his teaching and killed him.

Now I’m exhausted. You got more out of me than I have available. I hope I was clear and inoffensive in my explanation. I may appear as a hopeless bible thumper to you but I believe God is Love as He claims and all the things you and I find unsettling is much more than that to him. The mess we are in He could have prevented but only at the cost of our FREEDOM. At least we seem to share a disdain for religionist who use fear, ignorance and their pretence of authority over us to control and harm people. We may only differ on who is responsible.

Jst2laws