by TheApostleAK 20 Replies latest jw friends
So what you guys are saying is that I can beat & rape my wife, bash my children, break the law, be a violent drunk, and as long as I have faith that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and have faith in Jehovah God, I can still be declared righteous????
Read carefully James 2:14-24. Or don't you understand it or don't believe it?
Abraham and Rahab were both declared righteous because of their WORKS because they both had FAITH.
"Faith accompanied by Works"
Hey Ak:
I don't know who you were talking to, but if I were a person of faith, I surely wouldn't expect that I would recieve anythng good from anyone if I were that kind of person.
And therein lies the point of the whole faith vs. works debate really. In my opinion ppl of genuine faith in a loving God will do loving things to other ppl. Works follow faith and vice versa.
"..... anyone who ignores everyday reality in order to live up to an ideal will soon discover he had been taught how to destroy himself, not how to preserve himself." The Prince. Niccolo Machiavelli.
I was having a "go" at the "faith only" crowd....
"And therein lies the point of the whole faith vs. works debate really. In my opinion ppl of genuine faith in a loving God will do loving things to other ppl. Works follow faith and vice versa."
I agree wholeheartly with the 1st point. The 2nd point is half right. You gotta have faith first then the works will follow, not that "and vice versa".
Hey AK:
Yes faith does come before works, but what I was attempting to explain that the two go together. Good works follow a positive, healthy faith. However, that faith is concurrently strengthened and renewed by those good works. However the main stumbling block on this issue is what exactly constitutes "faith" and "works".
"..... anyone who ignores everyday reality in order to live up to an ideal will soon discover he had been taught how to destroy himself, not how to preserve himself." The Prince. Niccolo Machiavelli.
"but what I was attempting to explain that the two go together"
Bingo! I could agree more with that one and the rest of yr 2nd message.
"However the main stumbling block on this issue is what exactly constitutes "faith" and "works"."
Get out the sleeping bag. We're going to be here for a while.
Hey AK:
Exactly my brother. I mean the issue was being debated even in the early church. It was still a focal point during the Reformation 1500 yrs later. I don't think we'll be settling it any time soon if ever.
Peace:
Bigboi
"..... anyone who ignores everyday reality in order to live up to an ideal will soon discover he had been taught how to destroy himself, not how to preserve himself." The Prince. Niccolo Machiavelli.
I think the fundamental issue is settled. It's just the definition of "faith" and "works" that will never be settled.
Hello AK
I believe it is not that hard to define what is meant by faith and works. Please bear with me while I attemp.
Faith, ‘assured expectation of things not beheld’ covers a host of expectations. In the faith vs. works debate you have to look at WHAT works. The issue up to Jesus’ time was works of Justification with God by means of sacrifices and laws contained in the Hebrew scriptures. This is what Paul is speaking of almost exclusively in Romans, Galatians and the book of Hebrews. The entire message of the Hebrew scriptures was an extensive codification of what works man must do to get right with God. Jesus arrived and ‘fulfilled’ the law with his payment of his life to end all that old law code.
So Paul’s message was by ‘works no man can get right with God’.
Rom 3:27-28
27 Then what can we boast about doing to earn our salvation? Nothing at all. Why? Because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds; it is based on what Christ has done and our faith in him. 28 So it is that we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do.
TLB
It is a wonderful thought isn’t it, to think we don’t have to do anything to get right with God. It’s a free gift he gives us. All us former guilt stricken victims of the ‘Your Not Good Enough Unless’ religions, can throw our arms up and say “its over, my dark quest for justification is finished, I am right with God.”
So now lets suppose we have that faith. But we have friends who are still enslaved to the ‘Your Not Good Enough Unless’ religions? Do we have LOVE for them? Can we keep quiet? Will not your faith and love move you to share this good news with them? (Rom. 10:9-15) If you did not and your friends later learned this good news from someone else, wouldn’t they question why you did nothing? If a person says they love someone but never spoke to them, help them or rescue them when in need, wouldn’t it appear that their claim is false or their love is dead. In this context it would also appear their Faith was dead. You see, these are works of a totally different nature. Works of love and faith are from a completely different motivation.
I hope this helps show there is no conflict, AK. I am working on more on this subject and will later provide a website for your review.
I would be glad to hear form you.
Jst2laws
editted fore speling
How about:
Because of our FAITH we show WORKS. But our WORKS don't earn us Salvation?
So what you guys are saying is that I can beat & rape my wife, bash my children, break the law, be a violent drunk, and as long as I have faith that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and have faith in Jehovah God, I can still be declared righteous????
Even worse than that, AAK. You can be willing to tie up your child and cut him with a knife, and burn the remains as a sacrifice to a deity, just because you hear voices in your head.
If you do that, you are not only rightous, but a hero of faith and goodness reverred by half the planet's population, 3000 years or more after the alleged events took place.
- Jan
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Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
