Posts by debator

40

Adherence to FALSE TEACHINGS required of Jehovah's people: Scottish Court Case transcripts confirm

by Terry in

in 1954 a controversial court case, douglas walsh vs. the right honorable james latham clyde, m.p.c.

was held in scotland to determine.

if jehovah's witnesses should be exempt from military service and granted status as "ordained ministers".. what is of outstanding interest is that testimony in this trial is extraordinarily revealing.

debator

Hello Captive

Your points are good even If I don't agree with them.

Yes in some places Paul allows his opinion to come into it. Giving us (on certain issues) some flexibility but after the words you highlight he says..."I certainly think I also have God's spirit" Showing that he knows he is spirit inspired even in his opinion.

I do not see Pauls words as anything but spirit inspired. In early centuries his letters had more provenance than any bible book except maybe the gospels for being inspired. Pauls letters and the Gospels were fully accepted as Bible inspired works by all early scholars. I think once we allow the bible to be sliced up into parts we ignore or discard according to our personal preferences, that this is a mistake. Don't you think so?

You recognise the flock arrangement and Unity but not it's actuality? Not seeing that the greek scriptures show functioning working congregations under a central group of older men and apostles and that we must imitate this?

Acts 16:4
As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.

Acts 15:4
When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

Paul did fight for the rights of the gentiles but he did adhere to the congregation arrangement by going to the older men and getting a group decision on it. He was himself an Apostle gifted by spirit inspiration and so someone in authority and so placed to be part of the decision making. This is not the norm for the individual members that were told to imitate and obey with understanding those in authority in the congregations above them.

This is a point of contention with most modern Christians, whom prefer a self-regulated personal belief away from religions but I find that way too unbiblical for my taste to be honest.

Your next point in line with the topic. you say.....

It is clear fthat neither Jesus and Paul would have cast out any person who had the good sense and Spirit not to follow a religion's variable opinions. If Paul treated the conscience and faith of his fellow believers so delicately then, why would it be different now?

I do not agree with this statement and more importanly the bible doesn't either.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
[ Warning Against Idleness ] In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keepaway from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keepaway from them.

This next one is even more absolute by Paul.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one but your points were interesting to read. Thank you.

40

Adherence to FALSE TEACHINGS required of Jehovah's people: Scottish Court Case transcripts confirm

by Terry in

in 1954 a controversial court case, douglas walsh vs. the right honorable james latham clyde, m.p.c.

was held in scotland to determine.

if jehovah's witnesses should be exempt from military service and granted status as "ordained ministers".. what is of outstanding interest is that testimony in this trial is extraordinarily revealing.

debator

Please don't put words in my mouth Captive.

Yes actually I do think we are locked into gathering together as a religion or congregation. Otherwise you make the whole of the greek scriptures pointless and Jesus choosing oppostles who created the congregations and appointed elders, overseers, deacons etc for them. Paul's 25 books of instructions on how to guide and protect the flocks in all these congregations, is a waste of inspired words? If all you have to do is a give a nod to God and go on your way.

1 Corinthians 14:26
[ Orderly Worship ] What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

We are told to teach and preach and gather together as a people. It is non-negotiable.

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

And we have to be in agreement too.

1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

We have to be together as a people and using the bible for instruction, guidance and correction as it's needed. It will be needed according to Jesus and Paul for when we fall short and make mistakes from imperfection or needing greater understanding as we live through ever-unfolding prophetic times. Here is a familiar one that is overused but no less an instruction.

Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)

25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

You say we should use the scriptures but using the scriptures means listening to what they tell us to actually do! Would you agree with that?

40

Adherence to FALSE TEACHINGS required of Jehovah's people: Scottish Court Case transcripts confirm

by Terry in

in 1954 a controversial court case, douglas walsh vs. the right honorable james latham clyde, m.p.c.

was held in scotland to determine.

if jehovah's witnesses should be exempt from military service and granted status as "ordained ministers".. what is of outstanding interest is that testimony in this trial is extraordinarily revealing.

debator

Are you saying that as religious people in this time we will get Bible prophecy prediction completely correct without error at all? Despite the bible saying it is obscured?

Did the jews get the messiah predictions correct?

Did the apostles think from Jesus's words one of them was prophecied to live until Jesus's return? and did Jesus correct or condemn them for this?

This transcript simply shows a confrontational scenario where franz is trying to deal with loaded questions from the position that we have to get prophecy correct from the start and will not make mistakes or need refining.

Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

This shows stumbling is predicted but Gods people will change when it is needed, allowing themselves to be corrected from mistakes or wrong understandings that will happen.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

This scripture is pointless if we can get things right without need for constant reference to the bible if our understanding needs adjusting on subjects due to human imperfection.

277

Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW in

that they (trinity) are burning billions alive...forever?

with worms that live forever gnawing on them?.

debator

Hi Chalam

I'm sorry I cannot agree with you. Most scholars both past and present recognise "Lazarus and the Divas" as a parable.

It's true Lazarus is a named person but that doesn't go past the point, that a third of Jesus's presentations are parables and he never told literal stories for people to listen too. He kept his literal words to instructions and example. When it came to stories they were all parables. He may have refered to actual bible stories but he didn't add fresh literal stories to them. He kept to parables in his story telling.

I find it hard you are saying this story is literal. Which leads me to ask you a few questions.

You say "side" but the word is "Bosom" how can someone reside in someone bosom? there is the possibility of bosom position when seating at a meal so was lazarus eating lunch in heaven with Abraham in a literal way?

Since the rich man (divas) can see and call to Lazarus and Abraham can see and talk to the rich man across a "chasm" while one is in heaven and the other in hell. Are you saying then that those in heaven will see those in hell, tortured? Doesn't sound like heaven to me! and those in Hell will get the added pleasure of watching people in heaven having a fun times?

Can a drop of water on a tongue cool the fires of hell? if not why ask for it? and how could lazarus reach out across a chasm with a drop of water?

Are you really saying this story (from Luke only) is a literal real happening?

While the prophets are named they are not in the Parable they are just refered too as those his family had as living jews to listen too biblically.

You obviously now think Abraham among others are alive here when the bible in hebrews calls them dead until the resurrection how do you justify that contradiction?

Hebrews 11:13 (New International Version)

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.

Nope I think the logical thought is Jesus is saying a parable and thus there is no contradiction with hebrews.

I also find it hard to believe you think you are going to heaven and will have Torture TV to watch while at dinner when you are bored?

18

hows this for sick: childrens covention note book

by Aussie Oz in

jw
friends

this is lifted from a downloadable 'childrens note book for the 2010 d/cs' :.

http://www.jwforum.net/portal/ i found it in the twitter section.

when do you want to be baptized?.

debator

These are just headers for talks on things that could distract you from true worship to Jehovah. Jesus said something similar when he was getting his followers.

Matthew 10:36-37 (New International Version)

36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' [a]

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

Do you do this type of thing a lot on this site?

Make things wrong for witnesses but allow them everywhere else. like the bible or other religions or yourselves even?

277

Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW in

that they (trinity) are burning billions alive...forever?

with worms that live forever gnawing on them?.

debator

Hi isaac

Can a parable said to be an untruth?

parable - WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) :
parable
n 1: a short moral story (often with animal characters) [syn:
fable, parable, allegory, apologue]
2: (New Testament) any of the stories told by Jesus to convey
his religious message; "the parable of the prodigal son"

A parable is a story to convey a point, it is not meant to be taken literally.

Lets examine the story/parable we are refering too.

Luke 16:19-31 (New American Standard Bible)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20 "And a poor man named Lazarus (A) was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to (B) Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23 "In (C) Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom .

24 "And he cried out and said, ' (D) Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in (E) this flame.'

25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that (F) during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may (G) warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29 "But Abraham said, 'They have (H) Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

30 "But he said, 'No, (I) father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

I highlighted a few words in particular. Are you saying this is all literal and really happened?

Jesus used many poetical forms. parables being one, hyperboles as well, Are we really meant to pluck our eyes out rather than think of sinning? Or did he use them to emphasise the points he was making?

34

FASCINATING debate: do we actually know what JESUS taught at all??

by Terry in

this debate is quite thrilling.. .

start at three minutes and forty two seconds where bart ehrman begins speaking.

then, if you find this compelling, go back and watch all the debate.. .

debator

Hi terry

Good question, it certainly isn't easy. With the amount of different Christian denominations out there. They are no longer identitified by their Christianity but by what dogmas they believe, that are perculiar to their religion. Getting back to basics is good with the bible. Noting that it wasn't written for complicated philosophical concepts but for Fred Bloggs your average man to understand.

I honestly believe the Witnesses are nearest to what the first century christians believed but I allow others may disagree. That is their option.

84

The Witnesses are freaking out

by Sour Grapes in

i still go to a few meetings a month just to keep members of my family happy.. the witnesses seemed to be getting all worked up about how close the end.

it sorta feels like the 1975 era only 35 years later.

the brother who gave.

debator

Technically the bible has being predicting Armageddon 4000+ years. Jesus was asked when will the "conclusion" be. So if you think Jehovah's witnesses are slow after 120 years, you must really struggle with the length of time the bible has made you wait?

Armageddon only has to happen right once!

277

Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW in

that they (trinity) are burning billions alive...forever?

with worms that live forever gnawing on them?.

debator

Teel, I admit the concept of "hell" (eternal Torture) was in other non-christian religions under various names. So I should have been clearer that I was refering to the bible's and Christianities concept of "Hell" but wiki does admit.

"Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife,"

The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.

1. By examination of the Hebrew Scriptures it will be found that its radical or primary meaning is, The place or state of the dead.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html

Next wiki doesn't really go into how Christianity developed this concept only citing established post-third century Christian religions that support a specific Hellfire dogma.

""And I looked, and behold a pale horse; and his name that sat on him was death, and hell followed him." ReV vi 8. There is no necessary connection between death and a place of endless punishment, as all men die, good or bad; but there is a connection between death and the grave, or the state of the dead; and there is a propriety in representing the last as following the first. "And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." ReV xx. 13. This is the reverse of what is usually taught and believed of hell; for the leading idea is that it will not give up those who are in it. Surely the hell the Revelator speaks of is not a place of endless torments. This is further confirmed by the next verse, where it is said, "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire," that is, utterly destroyed. Of course, then, this hell cannot be a place of endless woe, since it is not itself endless."

I agree completely with the witnesses on this one. Or are you going to say "sheol"/grave is not a biblical teaching that got changed to Eternal hellfire in dogma?

25

A Kind Word For Brits

by metatron in

jw
friends

externally, we get a certain 'impression' of what living in england is like.

every third baby boy is named mohammed.

people who engage in self defense are imprisoned while criminals are given a 'firm talking to' and have their hands slapped.

debator

BBC world news is accounted one of the most popular news channels world-wide.