Posts by debator

28

"My" atheism...

by changeling in

jw
friends

a comment on dgp's thread about being kind to jw's promted me to post this thread.. as a life long (46 years) jw, i was conditioned to doing "the right thing" because it was required of me.

i was also conditioned to be on the lookout for others not doing the right thing and either distancing myself from them or reporting them to the elders.. today, i consider myself an atheist.

i have nobody telling me what the right thing is or fear of being punished for not doing it.

I don't think so. I found that sort of freedom was ultimately a selfishness that allowed me to abstain from responsibility beyond my own personal satisfaction to do what occured to me personally to towards what I considered good or what I considered bad. It is a lonely road I did not enjoy even if I didn't recognise this at the beginning.

A sigh of relief at responsibility being lifted, doesn't make up for the continual emptiness after that. I find now Jehovah walking with me again, someone to whom my thoughts and words can always reach towards. My loneliness is filled with companionship again.

but I allow you may feel differently. your way is not mine though.

28

"My" atheism...

by changeling in

jw
friends

a comment on dgp's thread about being kind to jw's promted me to post this thread.. as a life long (46 years) jw, i was conditioned to doing "the right thing" because it was required of me.

i was also conditioned to be on the lookout for others not doing the right thing and either distancing myself from them or reporting them to the elders.. today, i consider myself an atheist.

i have nobody telling me what the right thing is or fear of being punished for not doing it.

debator

Hi changling

I found your words rather sad. What price freedom from belief in Jehovah if it leaves you all alone?

67

The Origin of Life / Was Life Created - Utter Lies!

by God_Delusion in

"peter faces a dilemma.

his parents have taught him that god created the earth and all life on it.

they say that the bible's account of creation is trustworthy and that evolution is simply a theory-one not supported by the evidence.

debator

The sidetracking of using the word evolution away from source of life has led to people now using the word "Darwinist" it is clearlr than saying "Evolutionist" and includes all the points that a Darwinist thinks we come from ape-like ancesters etc.

So now I don't say "Your an Evolutionist" I say instead "your a Darwinist!"

34

The night I decided my C.O. was an apostate

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

jw
friends

the following took place several years ago in a congregation in the united states.

we had this circuit overseer who was a real piece of work.

40-ish mts grad, i believe.

debator

Why would men stop you being a Jehovah's witness? You read the bible a book showing that with the exception of Jesus the men that followed Jehovah made tons of imperfect mistakes from murder, adultery, to killing God's own people.

So you found out Your CO was an imperfect human, why would that make Jehovah any less Jehovah?

I always find imperfection of men threads weird because the bible is very consistent in showing that shepherding does not stop us being imperfect. Moses still made mistakes, even Paul wasn't particularily impressive in person. But that doesn't negate the bible direction for us to have overseers, elders among us etc?

Titus 1:7
Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

1 Timothy 5:17
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but I always wonder at imperfection of men as a reason to be stumbled. Surely Jehovah's usage of King David and Moses both murderers would create a massive stumbling block for you?

27

Would taking the Harp book from the KH library be stealing?

by EndofMysteries in

can anyone verify, but aren't those supposed to be trashed?

there are no pre 1950's wt in there anymore.

i saw that book there though, wondering if once an elder realizes it, will it be trashed or not?

debator

You would be condemned by your own conscience. You would know you were taking it never to return it for your own usage to either keep or sell.

Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do notsteal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "

58

Generation 'New Light' is Actually Working

by zoiks in

jw
friends

as ridiculous as it seems to me and most of you, the infamous 'generation' update has every jw that i know in a tizzy.

they're all worked up about how 'exciting' it all is.

i just received a letter from my mom (she only communicates through letters now), and she brought it up - how they carefully explained it at the convention, and how it shows that we are so close to the end.. unbelievable.

debator

Most witnesses grasp as I do that Bible prophecy is to be used but since it can only be 100% in hindsight we decern in unity, Using bible prophecy but recognise we will only understand fully when it gets fulfilled. you are placing unrealistic expectations on witnesses. Asking God inspired knowledge off them!

Prophecy is different from all other Bible scripture since it is subjective to our reading the signs/chronology etc around us and this is ongoing.But it should be used to the best of our current understanding of Bible prophecy.

82

The Jehovahs Witness family weekend

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

having been out of the organisation for over 4 years and having finally released my kids from the hellish existance that is life as a jw, it struck me today how enjoyable our weekends are in comparison to when we were jw's.. the weekends are vital for us just now.

my wife doesn't work but i work full time from very early in the morning.

i don't get to see my beutiful children in the morning during the week.

debator

I see the obvious irony I meant by my own equally general observations over non-witnesses passed you by.

If you object to my overly emotional generalities, why did you support it against witnesses by various posters inc the op? If you can see emotional manipulation in typecasting scenarios why do you use them against witnesses?

Children need to have a lot of structure in their lifes, this is not a bad thing! Jewish Children went to the temple with their parents much as we do as witnesses. Jewish people didn't use creches or babysitters, the children were expected to behave as there parents taught them too in the temple . This how they learned. People leave it to school now to teach this type of structured setting but there should be times with parents when they learn how to behaved among people in various setting both informal and formal.

82

The Jehovahs Witness family weekend

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

having been out of the organisation for over 4 years and having finally released my kids from the hellish existance that is life as a jw, it struck me today how enjoyable our weekends are in comparison to when we were jw's.. the weekends are vital for us just now.

my wife doesn't work but i work full time from very early in the morning.

i don't get to see my beutiful children in the morning during the week.

debator

It is interesting on these threads to see how little objectiveness is apparent. All witnesses apparently have joyless weekends and drag there kids out on the ministery for 9 hours each day on the saturday and sunday. And not being a witness means perfect parents that take there kids out on special fun-filled day trips and they all bond as a family.

Meeting - ministry in reality. I see kids enjoying meetings and answering up at their own volition as well as enjoying seeing regular friends they know in the congregation. Ministry is only a couple of hours and allows for a relax in the park afterwards sometimes there is a group get-together of families and a footie game. Some kids get restless but thats kids, same thing will happen if you take a 3 year old to a movie. Attention span comes with age and schooling.

For me one of the noticiable plusses is the sheer associations and friendships. Involved dinner invites and a shared love of Jehovah. Children enjoy playing together and not having a childhood spent parked by the parents at a computer, Wii or playstation as you can see in non-witness familes.

Or watching non-witness Dad and mum leave them with babysitters so they can have their saturday party night out and screaming at the kids to be quiet on sunday till midday as they nurse their hangovers.

I say objectivity means beware of appeal to emotion exploitative generalities like the op's initial post.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi everyone

Just to add the accusation was brought up on this debate that Jehovah's witnesses gone against the SPECIFIC points in deut 18 as to what constitutes a false prophet.

Deut 18 defines what is inspired and what is false prophecy. Biblically it was easily shown that Jehovah's witnesses have not done this according to the parameters specifically set by deut 18.

Some on here have tried to redefine Godly inspiration by their own ideas on it but if we are using deut 18 specifically to accuse we should also use it specifically to acertain if what is accused is correct.

I think it has been adequately proved that according to deut 18:18-22 Witnesses are not false prophets

Deuteronomy 18:18-22 (New International Version)

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will PUT MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

If you would like to lay further biblical points on the table, I will happily address them but I think the case of not being false prophets has been adequately proved for the witnesses.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Sorry for the delay I've had a busy week.

Hi TD.

All I'm trying to show is the bible allows for people to be directly contacted by God literally "Spoken too by Jehovah" and it is falsely claiming this in deut 18 which is what constitutes as being a false prophet Biblcally. Spirit guidance which doesn't involve this is I agree far ranging and indeed hard to pin down.

But since you recognise the BIble can set the parameters for different uses of holy spirit usage then you must also recognise the bible deliberately points out which specific individual spirit uses that are claimed falsely are then what constitutes false prophecy. The bible differentiates so we should too.

Hi Isaac

Since they were refering to the already inspired "Creator's promise" from the bible in Isaiah/psalms (already written prophecy) in this awake introduction then they are not claiming inspiration. Your response to this is the second part which they have decerned from bible chronology is not part of this and so they are claiming inspiration but if you recognise this second section is not part of the promise which they are refering to you have shot yourself in the foot and separated the "Creators promise of a peaceful earth" from the second part yourself.

Hi Seb

Since the bible itself allows for different uses of Holy spirit differentiating in particular the difference between falsely claiming the ability to prophecy, to speak "WORDS FROM GOD" himself (And it is this that is condemned in particular) and other less direct ways.

The minute Deut 18 specified the particular part of claiming holy spirit falsely as speaking the words of God himself as wrong then that is the dividing line.

It's like saying everyone that takes something from a shop are criminals without specifying it is the ones that are taking without paying that are criminals. The bible itself sets the parameters of wrongdoing on spirit usage, which people on here recognise because they easily pick out the time parametre but ignore the "speaking words of God parametre"