Posts by debator

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi again TD

Thank you for you reply.

I think some of your points are covered in my response to doubting bro above but to continue.

Major spiritual Gifts aside this does not negate any of Pauls books outlining our having leaders to obey and how to appoint them so becoming a self-sustaining command.

I am confused are your arguments that the inspired letters of Paul were only written for first century christians?

While I agree no authority even our own shepherds is free of imperfection and the ability to make mistakes but I do not see this as unworkable. Paul had to deal with this as well and gave instructions on how to deal with elders under rebuke.

1 Timothy 5:19-20 (New International Version)

19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

While we are not first century christians Bible instructions are clearly meant to be used until Armageddon at least.

Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Now onto blood fractions they were a grey area which was forced by medicine itself. When is blood no longer blood?

You are talking about a 10 year period between 1954 and 64 in your particular example? I have tried to reseach gamma globulin but coming up with it being a very young science in those days and certainly not the widespread usage we have now so very few people would have been effected, if any. You may have to provide links going that far back in time. I couldn't find any accept people worried about the prolonged effects from test gamma injections given at that time.

I found a similar thing on heart transplants after researching found that it was only around the time when witnesses allowed transplants that transplants actually started prolonging life more than a few months and without a lot of suffering.

Like doubting bro you seem to be asking an inspiration level of understanding from shepherds while acknowledging the bible indicates we will not have it.

Could you only follow leaders that are inspired of God? well we did have the apostles but they passed on the responsibility to elders and overseers appointed from among us that wouldn't have the major spirit gifts.

It is also clear the spirit gifts did not make the apostles or elders perfect or mistake free.

I'll be honest I don't see the argument of "we can't do this that or the other" as valid reasons to ignore written scripture for our instruction and guidance. Even if we still do it imperfectly.

I do not see past writings as passive.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,

It is why I think following truthful bible teachings is a very real way to find God's people in this time.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi doubting bro

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I will try and address all your points but feel free to ask again if I miss any. Do you accept that the only bible we have for guidance is both the hebrew and greek scriptures?

While our leaders are not inspired (please note from previous posts I still allow them to be spirit guided and biblically guided) I see no reason to doubt their authority as directed by bible understanding and in fact the bible gives instructions on appointing overseers and elders. Then tells us to imitate them and submit to their authority. This then makes our authority a self-sustaining thing until Jesus's return.

as an interesting side point note that Paul also gave Timothy instructions on his health that didn't include spiritual healing for illnesses.

1 Timothy 5:23 (New International Version)

23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

showing the healings where not used in all cases. If you read through the greek scriptures It's clear the spirit gifts were used under specific situations and outside of this they still functioned as normal christians needing practical daily measures for daily life.

The bible is our guidebook to how we function whether we have specific spirit gifts or not. Obviously we have to work around our lack of the major spirit gifts but the greek scriptures are about more than healing, tongues, and prophecies. Paul is a deeply practical man and addresses daily life from marriage and bringing up children to appointing elders and setting up congregations. He wrote these letters that were sent out as stringly worded instructions for these congregations.

2 Corinthians 10:10
For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing."

And the consequences of not recognising the teachings of the apostles were great.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keepaway from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

There are so many scriptures on usage on authority within the congregation instructions I could pick a multitude of examples.

on apointing elders

Titus 1:5.

5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint [a] elders in every town, as I directed you.

on divisive people

Titus 3:10

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

imitating men taking the lead

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

assiging tasks within the church recognising this structured authority within themselves and contrary to your point they agreed where they should preach within themselves under Jesus's direction.

Galatians 2:9-10 (New International Version)

9 James, Peter [a] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

The more I read the Greek scriptures the more I can see a very structured religion certainly it is at it's birth but the structure and unity between the leaders and those under them is very clear to see. Like in the examples you use like in Acts among others.

The bible allows for double-fold prophecies but prophecy including usage of bible chronology is a subjective and certainly not an exact science Biblically it is only 100% in hindsight. I accept if you personally have doubts on this but allowing divisiveness even over prophecy is not a biblical stance.

607bc is a bible drawn date. your "wealth of documents" boils down to only about 1 or 2 contended secular sources that have been written by men not inspired at that time.

http://thirdwitness.com/607_BCE/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/

This is link that explains it much better than I could. Let me ask, you do you prefer Christendoms abstaining completely from using bible prophecy at all? This is another area were these days Witnesses are unique. I see many threads trying divebomb 607bc I see none offering alternate explanations on bible-based chronology.

If you are demanding a supernatural equivalent of God reaching out and picking someone out, giving him powers then you are asking for the impossible in these times. The only ones with apparent miraculous gifts in these times are false prophets.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

I myself and satisfied from the amount of Bible truths witnesses have that they are God's people in this time but I fully appreciate that you would have to decide for yourself on this.

I have enjoyed discussing this with you too.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Why are you proof texting with the Ethopian Eunoch? When we also have the rest of the Greek scriptures to draw to fully understand how preaching and baptism worked?

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi wannabe

The bible only tells us how the Eunuch Got contacted and philips preaching, then his baptism. You are then jumping to conclusions because the bible says no more on it. As to whether the eunoch joined a congregation etc. You are speculating on absence of evidence either way. he didn't see philip again and it stops there.

But then we have Paul and the other establishing congregations elders etc do you ignore this?

Also the Christians then were a New united People they didn't have to deal with a divisioned Christianity split right down to the very God they serve with a multiplicity of doctrines out there. although this is predicted.

Galatians 1:6-8 (New International Version)

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Obviously this then goes to people on here saying Jehovah's witnesses don't have the correct Gospel and I myself among other Jehovah's witnesses saying they do it's trinitarians that don't. This is then just a difference of opinion. Do I think mormons have the correct Gospel? No Do I think trinitarians have the correct Gospel? No But that is what each of us have to personally decide upon.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi guys

I'm sorry I did not mean to throw this into a immortality of the soul debate, I used that only as an example although can we now discuss the multiple meanings in the Bible usage of the word proskuneo?

Hi Isaac

Bible preaching work is defined by how it is done in the Bible which is person to person from Jesus to his apostles and the sermon of the mount, to sending his apostles out to preach in towns in pairs. To philip running alongside the Ethopians chariot. you are right they allow for preaching to happen in allsorts of situations from towns, marketplaces, prisons, hillsides, roadways, boats etc. But in EVERY case the it is a Person preaching explaining and using God's word and message.

22

Eternal life for flesh and blood creatures

by donny in

i was explaining the basic teachings to a non-witness coworker the other day and we began talking about the incident in the garden of eden.

i told him that according to the society, if adam and eve had not sinned, the world today would be full of perfect human beings who never die.. he then asked "what about the animal kingdom?

would they be mortal and grow old and die and if so, how would god explain that to humans?".

debator

The bible is silent on this subject specifically. but only mankind is talked about as having the promised reward of everlasting life.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi Jgnat and Isaac

People becoming witnesses is more to do with their personal interest than how we sell the product. The biblical method of person to person contact with Biblical explanation is an established one that lets the bible and preacher work together to bring truth to preaching. If I teach the Soul is immortal/undying as a trinitarian how would I explain this against Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A person can check my teaching against the bible and see whether it is correct or not.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi deputydog

I was simply commenting on jgnats examples on literature placed as preaching work. If Gideons preach outside of this JGnat did not mention this and I have certainly never known about them preaching from Door to door.

It's understanding first what the bible means by preaching work and not putting modern ideas on what is preaching work is. Putting these in place of People preaching God's message to other People using God's word the bible specifically as part of this.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi Jgnat

With respect witnesses produce billions of literature a year but we do count the literature as able to do it's own preaching work.

Your examples are people handing out DVD's and Bibles put in hotels that involve no actual preaching work.

The Jews had God's word the Bible and still needed to be preached to by Jehovah's son Jesus.

The ethopian eunuch was quoting from Isaiah but still needed Philip to be sent to preach to and teach him. The Bereans had the Bible but used it to test the accuracy of Pauls preaching against.

Preaching is more than just handing out DVD, Bibles and pamphlets It leads right upto the people being Baptised as Christians and then becoming preachers themselves.

100

Where did 607 come from?

by MrFreeze in

okay so we've obviously established on this board that 607 is not the correct date that babylon destroyed jerusalem.

even before 1914 came around, the bible students still thought 1914 would be a pivital date.

the only way they can gain that info is from the 7 times or w/e.

debator

Hi isaac

But who is the false prophet? Witness do not meet the BIBLE requirements to be false prophets they have never claimed inspiration the ability to speak words from God himself. Which is the basic requirement in DEUT 18 to be a false prophet. We have discussed this before so I hope you understand I will always disagree with you on this one.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/194442/3/Generation-topic-dedicated-to-debator

God refines his People and yes people who are not Gods cannot be refined. Look now and see which people allow themselves to be refined from mistakes accepting they will stumble against groups which do not change for 100's years and only dig themselves deeper into false doctrines never admiting mistakes?

Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.