Posts by debator

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi doubting bro and TD

I have read your replies and personal opinions but I do not agree with them. When is an organisation not an organisation? The first century christians were organised they worked together they ALL used Pauls letters for instructions as they were sent around.

The bible is a warts and all read when it comes to men citing the good, as well as the bad and disagreements. This is true of the hebrew scriptures as well as the greek scriptures.

For TD, the established usage of bible books beyond the generation they were written for was set with the hebrew scriptures. Jesus himself used them 100's of years past their writing so unless you are arguing that Pauls writings are not inspired?

on Jesus when he used the hebrew scriptures

Luke 24:32
They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"

On Paul when he wrote under inspiration for our instruction.

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

for Dbro, Imperfection in men is not a disqualification to shepherd! it wasn't for Moses or David, or Paul so looking at our shepherds and saying they are just imperfect men so I won't follow them is foolishness. Someone has to govern and shepherd it is a gift.

Romans 12:6-8 (New International Version)

6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his [a] faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

What is warned against is Division, there is no unity with Divisions we have to agree amongst ourselves.

Jesus words to his annointed apostles

Matthew 18:19
"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

1 Corinthians 1:10
[ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

but what happened to first century men that didn't like what Paul or the other apostles their shepherds taught and caused divisions?

Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

2 Thessalonians 3:6

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

2 Thessalonians 3:14
If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.

You question practicies in the Jehovah's Witnesses that you allow in the greek scriptures?

As for spirit inspiration (getting words directly from God) and spirit guidance both biblically and through pray I think the Bible establishes both but it is for the readers to decide.

I have enjoyed talking to you both and your replies. Thank you.

67

mentions of going to heaven in the Bible?

by AwSnap in

i have been reading the bible for the first time in my life.

what my viewpoint on it is not the issue.

i am shocked as to the things i have been reading.

debator

Are we talking about the Bible here or just the greek scriptures /new testament?

If you read psalms, Isaiah etc You will see the Jews ALL believed in an earthly resurrection on the last day in fact martha mentions it to Jesus.

Psalm 37:11 (Amplified Bible)

11 But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. (A)

John 11:24 (New International Version)

24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

When you say the lords prayer what do you think you are praying for when you ask for God's will to be done on earth as well as in heaven?

It's tempting to rewrite Jewish history with trinitarian spin but they did not believe in a heavenly resurrection but an earthly one this is historic fact.

Isaiah 26:19 (New International Version)

19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Where was Jesus resurrected as the firstborn from the dead? heaven or earth? earth!

48

Changes to the Kingdom Interlinear

by PanzerZauberei in

in the 1969 kit the society used a book by bible scholar justus lipsius as source material for their upright stake "stauros" doctrine of the death of christ.

they used an image of a man hung on an upright stake with no crossbeam attached to it.

then they placed a caption under it saying that the illustration came from lipsius.

debator

HI narkissos

You talk about the translation for "hand" but your point backs witnesses use of original wording "stake" up did you realise that?

Because the word remains "hand" even if the wrist of forearm where known to be included and it could simply be hand as well. But if someone put wrist instead of "hand" they would be assuming on the word and distorting that the word is "hand" when translated whatever it included.

This is also the case for "stauros"

Again whatever people thought in the centuries after Jesus death this has nothing to do with original wording. None of these were inspired so changing the wording to their opinion is taking it away from it's original inspiration.

And again I reiterate a T-shaped Tau impalement does not allow for a sign above Jesus's head because of the way the patibulum slotted over the stake.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi again TD

Thank you for you reply.

I think some of your points are covered in my response to doubting bro above but to continue.

Major spiritual Gifts aside this does not negate any of Pauls books outlining our having leaders to obey and how to appoint them so becoming a self-sustaining command.

I am confused are your arguments that the inspired letters of Paul were only written for first century christians?

While I agree no authority even our own shepherds is free of imperfection and the ability to make mistakes but I do not see this as unworkable. Paul had to deal with this as well and gave instructions on how to deal with elders under rebuke.

1 Timothy 5:19-20 (New International Version)

19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

While we are not first century christians Bible instructions are clearly meant to be used until Armageddon at least.

Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Now onto blood fractions they were a grey area which was forced by medicine itself. When is blood no longer blood?

You are talking about a 10 year period between 1954 and 64 in your particular example? I have tried to reseach gamma globulin but coming up with it being a very young science in those days and certainly not the widespread usage we have now so very few people would have been effected, if any. You may have to provide links going that far back in time. I couldn't find any accept people worried about the prolonged effects from test gamma injections given at that time.

I found a similar thing on heart transplants after researching found that it was only around the time when witnesses allowed transplants that transplants actually started prolonging life more than a few months and without a lot of suffering.

Like doubting bro you seem to be asking an inspiration level of understanding from shepherds while acknowledging the bible indicates we will not have it.

Could you only follow leaders that are inspired of God? well we did have the apostles but they passed on the responsibility to elders and overseers appointed from among us that wouldn't have the major spirit gifts.

It is also clear the spirit gifts did not make the apostles or elders perfect or mistake free.

I'll be honest I don't see the argument of "we can't do this that or the other" as valid reasons to ignore written scripture for our instruction and guidance. Even if we still do it imperfectly.

I do not see past writings as passive.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword,

It is why I think following truthful bible teachings is a very real way to find God's people in this time.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi doubting bro

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I will try and address all your points but feel free to ask again if I miss any. Do you accept that the only bible we have for guidance is both the hebrew and greek scriptures?

While our leaders are not inspired (please note from previous posts I still allow them to be spirit guided and biblically guided) I see no reason to doubt their authority as directed by bible understanding and in fact the bible gives instructions on appointing overseers and elders. Then tells us to imitate them and submit to their authority. This then makes our authority a self-sustaining thing until Jesus's return.

as an interesting side point note that Paul also gave Timothy instructions on his health that didn't include spiritual healing for illnesses.

1 Timothy 5:23 (New International Version)

23 Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

showing the healings where not used in all cases. If you read through the greek scriptures It's clear the spirit gifts were used under specific situations and outside of this they still functioned as normal christians needing practical daily measures for daily life.

The bible is our guidebook to how we function whether we have specific spirit gifts or not. Obviously we have to work around our lack of the major spirit gifts but the greek scriptures are about more than healing, tongues, and prophecies. Paul is a deeply practical man and addresses daily life from marriage and bringing up children to appointing elders and setting up congregations. He wrote these letters that were sent out as stringly worded instructions for these congregations.

2 Corinthians 10:10
For some say, "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing."

And the consequences of not recognising the teachings of the apostles were great.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keepaway from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

There are so many scriptures on usage on authority within the congregation instructions I could pick a multitude of examples.

on apointing elders

Titus 1:5.

5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint [a] elders in every town, as I directed you.

on divisive people

Titus 3:10

10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

imitating men taking the lead

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

assiging tasks within the church recognising this structured authority within themselves and contrary to your point they agreed where they should preach within themselves under Jesus's direction.

Galatians 2:9-10 (New International Version)

9 James, Peter [a] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

The more I read the Greek scriptures the more I can see a very structured religion certainly it is at it's birth but the structure and unity between the leaders and those under them is very clear to see. Like in the examples you use like in Acts among others.

The bible allows for double-fold prophecies but prophecy including usage of bible chronology is a subjective and certainly not an exact science Biblically it is only 100% in hindsight. I accept if you personally have doubts on this but allowing divisiveness even over prophecy is not a biblical stance.

607bc is a bible drawn date. your "wealth of documents" boils down to only about 1 or 2 contended secular sources that have been written by men not inspired at that time.

http://thirdwitness.com/607_BCE/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/

This is link that explains it much better than I could. Let me ask, you do you prefer Christendoms abstaining completely from using bible prophecy at all? This is another area were these days Witnesses are unique. I see many threads trying divebomb 607bc I see none offering alternate explanations on bible-based chronology.

If you are demanding a supernatural equivalent of God reaching out and picking someone out, giving him powers then you are asking for the impossible in these times. The only ones with apparent miraculous gifts in these times are false prophets.

Matthew 24:24
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

I myself and satisfied from the amount of Bible truths witnesses have that they are God's people in this time but I fully appreciate that you would have to decide for yourself on this.

I have enjoyed discussing this with you too.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Why are you proof texting with the Ethopian Eunoch? When we also have the rest of the Greek scriptures to draw to fully understand how preaching and baptism worked?

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi wannabe

The bible only tells us how the Eunuch Got contacted and philips preaching, then his baptism. You are then jumping to conclusions because the bible says no more on it. As to whether the eunoch joined a congregation etc. You are speculating on absence of evidence either way. he didn't see philip again and it stops there.

But then we have Paul and the other establishing congregations elders etc do you ignore this?

Also the Christians then were a New united People they didn't have to deal with a divisioned Christianity split right down to the very God they serve with a multiplicity of doctrines out there. although this is predicted.

Galatians 1:6-8 (New International Version)

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Obviously this then goes to people on here saying Jehovah's witnesses don't have the correct Gospel and I myself among other Jehovah's witnesses saying they do it's trinitarians that don't. This is then just a difference of opinion. Do I think mormons have the correct Gospel? No Do I think trinitarians have the correct Gospel? No But that is what each of us have to personally decide upon.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi guys

I'm sorry I did not mean to throw this into a immortality of the soul debate, I used that only as an example although can we now discuss the multiple meanings in the Bible usage of the word proskuneo?

Hi Isaac

Bible preaching work is defined by how it is done in the Bible which is person to person from Jesus to his apostles and the sermon of the mount, to sending his apostles out to preach in towns in pairs. To philip running alongside the Ethopians chariot. you are right they allow for preaching to happen in allsorts of situations from towns, marketplaces, prisons, hillsides, roadways, boats etc. But in EVERY case the it is a Person preaching explaining and using God's word and message.

22

Eternal life for flesh and blood creatures

by donny in

i was explaining the basic teachings to a non-witness coworker the other day and we began talking about the incident in the garden of eden.

i told him that according to the society, if adam and eve had not sinned, the world today would be full of perfect human beings who never die.. he then asked "what about the animal kingdom?

would they be mortal and grow old and die and if so, how would god explain that to humans?".

debator

The bible is silent on this subject specifically. but only mankind is talked about as having the promised reward of everlasting life.

83

How to respond to "Whoelse is preaching the good news worldwide?"

by EndofMysteries in

this scripture stands out to me...... 1 cor 1:17-21 for christ dispatched me, not to go baptizing, but to go declaring the good news, not with wisdom of speech, that the torture stake of the christ should not be made useless.. 18 for the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is gods power.

19 for it is written: i will make the wisdom of the wise [men] perish, and the intelligence of the intellectual [men] i will shove aside.

20 where is the wise man?

debator

Hi Jgnat and Isaac

People becoming witnesses is more to do with their personal interest than how we sell the product. The biblical method of person to person contact with Biblical explanation is an established one that lets the bible and preacher work together to bring truth to preaching. If I teach the Soul is immortal/undying as a trinitarian how would I explain this against Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A person can check my teaching against the bible and see whether it is correct or not.