Posts by debator

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi boyzone thankyou for quoting the rest.

I could have put it all together but you are just taking your scriptures out of context. You are saying that verse 18 the context setting for the next scriptures which you quote doesn't have to apply but it patently does!

note even your quote says " I have not commanded him" clearly refering back to verse 18 where God is speaking directly to him.

I could also proof text scriptures ignoring the context. Duet 18:18 is the context for the whole chapter these false prophets will claim to be inspired actually being able to say words they got from God directly and I repeat all jews new this about deut 18 and also it is a prediction for the messiah on how to recognise him.

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi boyzone

You are mistaken.

Deuteronomy 18:18 (New International Version)

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Deut 18 is dealing with inspired prophecy only and how do I know definitely? It is also a future prediction for the messiah himself. He is the prophet raised from among the people who will say inspired prophecies and how to recognise he is the real thing. Jews understood Deut 18 to be talking about the ability to be inspired of God.

The apostles and Nathan both claimed to speak for God and unlike witnesses had access to the ability to be inspired both these made mistakes concerning predictions and according to the bible where not condemned as false prophets the bible allows for misunderstandings but according to your nitpicking they would have to be condemned as false prophets as well.

You guys have argued yourselves into an impossible postion of expecting perfection from imperfection.

144

The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan in

my mom is addicted to the wts.

i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.

he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.

debator

Hi wasblind I apologise for my delay.

While it is enjoyable to see you all redefine "prophet" to avoid dealing with the clear defined point in deut 18 on what makes false prophecy which is purely discussiing making predictions spoken to a person by God himself directly. Rather than warning from already written inspired predictions/prophecies. Which Jehovah gave to the Bible writers and in this witnesses are doing God's work but not getting inspired words directly from his mouth only repeating as per instruction the warnings God already gave to those bible writers that where inspired.

Another side point is that they do not try and put a date on armageddon itself they are talking about Jesus's presence and the end of gentile times this is not the same thing.

Where is all redefining getting you? Into an impossible position where you are saying only perfect people can be God's people.

According to your reasonings Nathan and the apostles by simply making mistakes on God's or his son's words are also false prophets but you realise this is impossible but then ignore it to keep pointing to this unrealistic expectation on the witnesses to justify rejecting them as God's people.

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi everyone.

While I can see you have all been tempted to pidgeonhole "prophet" as someone that says inspired prophetic words from God concerning events to happen but this is going against the bible's greater usage of the word "prophet"

By trying to pigeonhole a 'prophet" into the role of a predictor. This allows you to point at Witnesses attempts at Chronology, and point out where mistakes have been made.

This is convienent because this allows the people who are against witnesses to immediatly reject all things from the WTS based on a label they have invented for witnesses.

However, they never claimed to be predictors. Duet 18 makes it clear it has to be an inspired prediction directly spoke to them by God from his words..

Another function of a prophet is to warn others.

Ezekiel and Jeremiah warned of impending judgement. JW do this as well, by acting as "watchman" in the same way Ezekiel was given this role.

JW warn of impending Armegeddon (which is after all a biblical teaching)and give out the message to become reconciled to Jehovah. In that way they act as prophets.

There was the time when Jesus breathed holy spirit onto the Apostles. That made them error free right? they werer also prophets yet...

No, but wait! They then went on to promulgate a false teaching. They came to believe that Jesus had prophesied the future of Apostle John and they he would never die.

So they must have been false prophets, telling people that in the future John would never die when we all know that John *did* die.

Did the holy spirit make a mistake when they promulgated that false teaching? They were prophets and unlike witnesses could also predict the future but did both these make them false prophets when they promulgated a mistaken understanding from Jesus's word about john? no.

I have enjoyed this discussion too because people can see the clear steps when you all had to accept the bible in Deut 18 makes it clear witnesses do not claim to prophetic inspired words from Jehovah. You then have to retrench to another position aka they call themselves "prophets" so any mistakes they make are false teachings aka false prophecy according to you when this is against Deut 18 and pidgeonholes a prophet to being a predictor only.

Some then try and condemn using the watchtowers (no longer able to use the bible) proof texting articles which themselves explain they in no way claim to make inspired predictions and only say understandings they have drawn from Bible prophecies and chronology.

I am not the one retrenching and repositioning the goal posts on this topic my position is the same now as it was at the beginning. According to Deut 18 God's own word they are not false prophets.

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi everyone

This is getting circular. You say the bible shows that all prophets prophecy yet when it is shown the bible itself gives examples of those called prophets who have not prophecied you say they must have despite this because in the bible all prophets prophecy. That sort of reasoning just gives me a headache.

Hi brotherdan

The burden of proof is on you to show they claim to be inspired for any of those dates and have got them as words from Jehovah himself and not decerned them from his word the bible.

All Leavingwt examples show is that they use the word "prophet" for themselves but this is not False prophecy and just a misdirection into a red herring and in fact again redefining false prophecy away from clear bible definitions.

The 7 trumpet blasts are bible prophecy already written in the bible.

I have to go now but thank you for your replies.

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi brotherdan

I already did about 8 posts down from your first post. I am simply repeating myself now. This has been an interesting debate but I feel I can add no more now. Let the readers read the whole of deut 18 for themselves to decide but also for added emphasis read the definition for false prophets that happen specifically in this time of the end by Jesus himself.

Matthew 24:24 (New International Version)

24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

The false prophets in this time will claim to perform miracles and great signs. Witnesses do not do this and never have.

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi dan

I use the bible definition of a false prophet from the whole of deut 18 specifically from deut 18:18-22

By proof texting your scriptures to only deut 18:20-22 you deliberately miss out the important point that they are claiming to speak the very words Gods has spoken to them. Who is being misleading now?

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi Jwoods

Since the bible gives many examples of people called prophets that didn't actually prophecy you are being dishonest with yourself.

Hi Dan

They didn't just pull those dates out of the air they drew them from bible chronology. haggai has no chronology in it. So you would have to ask where they got the date from?

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

Hi Olin

Now olin print out the whole article which I'm sure showed how they used bible chronology inspired of God to decern those dates and so could say they are from Jehovah.

Using God's word the bible including bible prophecies and chronology is not a sin but a command. Even if we make mistakes we have to be humble enough to be refined when this happens.

Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

You ask an extroadinary level of accuracy from the witnesses that simply isn't realistic or even biblical for God's people and never was.

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

debator

HI dan and Jwoods.

Please do not mix being a prophet with false prophecy.

Did all prophets do prophecy?

Miriam moses sister was called a prophet yet there are no recorded prophecies from her among others .

Again though you are trying to redefine the already clearly defined biblical way of seeing false prophecy and it clearly says they have to claim to be able to say the very inspired words of Jehovah.

With regard to 1914

"We are not prophesying; we are merely giving our surmises ... We do not even aver that there is no mistake in our interpretation of prophecy and our calculations of chronology. We have merely laid these before you, leaving it for each to exercise his own faith or doubt in respect to them"
Zion's Watch Tower, January 1, 1908 (reprint) page 4110

You are trying to condemn them for surmising bible prophecy something we are told to do by Jehovah himself. It's a clear case of damned if you and damned if you don't in your eyes.

You are building a case against from your own definitions not the bibles. You are shutting the door for people to use God's biblical prophecies for fear of being called false prophets simply by using it and so just burying it unused in the sand out of fear.