Hi Leolaia My point still stands. Whether hey find what they are looking for or not and since oceanic fossils are the largest group (the least effected by he flood event) they are very predictive and adaptive but they are still reading their framework into it. lobe-fin fish are an example of this. Showing what happens when they get it wrong thinking a fin adaption is the next stage in evolution but ends up being just another fin adaption. They are hampered by seeing the skeleton and not the animal and they "see" what they want to see. It is the starting framewark that is the problem one that throws away what they cannot use as proof as they did the lobe-fin fish and move on to newer searches.
debator
JoinedPosts by debator
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143
How do Jehovah's Witnesses Explain This Fossil Record?
by sabastious inaccording to jws, evolution is false.
so how do they explain these human-like fossils?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/human_evolution.
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A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by BRUCE M. METZGER
by possible-san ina textual commentary on the greek new testament, by bruce m. metzger.
chm file (e book), 1.25mb.
http://anonym-to.com/?http://rapidshare.com/files/100421737/textual_commentary-greek_new_testament.rar.
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debator
Hi Possible-san
The contradiction is simply too great and it isn't only the witnesses that drop the "me"
John 16:23 (New International Version)
23 In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
to keep the "me" makes Jesus a liar.
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96
Understanding Revelation (According to the JWs)
by brotherdan indebator (or any other current jw on the board),.
will you please explain to me the understanding of how the 7 trumpet blasts in revelation were fulfilled?
has it already happened?
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debator
Hi Brotherdan
firstly Prophecy is a specific thing pertaining to getting prophetic words, visions straight from God himself. Are you saying the prophecies in Revelation are false ones?
Interpreting actual bible prophecy even if wrong does not make you a false prophet it just makes you wrong and needing refinement. Your definition is from your opinion not the bible. Nowhere in the bible does it say "interpret these bible prophecies correctly or else you are a false prophet."
Your looking for literal fulfillment of these prophecies that are extremely graphic in content? and people call witnesses blood thirsty!
Jews expected a literal firework fulfillment they got a messiah that disappointed in his lack of spectacular fireworks. Is that what you want spectacular firework fulfillment?
As for timing of them? The continued lack of repentence of men in the prophecy speaks more of these times rather that tribulation when they realise too late their wrongdoing.
I should mention now that the quiet non-hysterical practical approach of witnesses to prophecy intepretation is another reason I am one.
Nothing I read in the Bible about already fulfilled prophecies show that Jehovah goes in for pleasing the masses and showmanship. Prophecy fulfillment is always straightforward to the point.
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96
Understanding Revelation (According to the JWs)
by brotherdan indebator (or any other current jw on the board),.
will you please explain to me the understanding of how the 7 trumpet blasts in revelation were fulfilled?
has it already happened?
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debator
I think it does fit because the step to believing in Jehovah Almighty God and separating ourselves from the delusions that blinded Christendom for 1900 years or so is a big one and would be marked in prophecy.
Like I said it is unrealistic of people to expect fulfillments that is pleasing the expectaions of men rather than God. On the contrary Bible fulfillment has always been more subtle than that.
There is nothing wrong with having confidence tha you are God's people and prophecy will be fulfilled among you. Were he jews being narcissistic?
Then we have the million dollar question if oudoub this interpreation wha is the right one and who or what does it concern.
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143
How do Jehovah's Witnesses Explain This Fossil Record?
by sabastious inaccording to jws, evolution is false.
so how do they explain these human-like fossils?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/human_evolution.
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debator
Hi poopsie
I am not critising their geology only there bias and history. I don't have to be a geologist to that.
They are making very BIG claims from a record they admit themselves is incomplete and one they goto with pre-existing framework that contaminate any results they get because they only apply them to that framework.
Scientists basically say "It doesn't matter about that past point we hailed as proof but have now disgarded. Now we have even greater proof in this one." And that is the history of Darwinism in a nutshell. Old gives way to new and ever more complex theology of scientific possibilities until a new set comes along.
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143
How do Jehovah's Witnesses Explain This Fossil Record?
by sabastious inaccording to jws, evolution is false.
so how do they explain these human-like fossils?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/human_evolution.
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debator
Hi bohm
"failed prophecies" your prejudice screams out just there from that expression alone. Witnesses have not made one single prophecy! I can say that completely truthfully and you cannot produce one single Prophecy from them.
Interpreting EXISTING Bible prophecies is not making an actual prophecy.
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143
How do Jehovah's Witnesses Explain This Fossil Record?
by sabastious inaccording to jws, evolution is false.
so how do they explain these human-like fossils?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/human_evolution.
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debator
Hi bohn
Your trying to draw me into speculation about the flood! The Bible says there was one and racial memory of a flood supports this, from one end of the earth to another.
Since the requirements to know what a world-wide flood would do to the earth would be to have it redone (including the original conditions) to see the consequences. I cannot see how anyone would know without flooding the world again what it's geological fingerprint would be.
Maybe they are looking for something small when they should be looking for huge. Or maybe looking right at it but not seeing it for what it is.
I'm not a geologist and to try and pretend I am is just silly. But as I said before whether they are looking for proof or disproof starting from either viewpoint makes for a biased position when then looking at the evidence and so will contaminate the results.
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143
How do Jehovah's Witnesses Explain This Fossil Record?
by sabastious inaccording to jws, evolution is false.
so how do they explain these human-like fossils?.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/human_evolution.
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debator
Hi leolaia
By searching the way you suggest through the fossil record they are just creating a self-fulling prophecy. They would reject what doesn't fit and fit something that fills their search requirements. The bias is already in place before they even start searching.
By constantly reshaping and rejecting Evolution to an already set darwinistic framework there is no room for critical observation. There is no allowance that these pieces could make a clearer picture but one that is completely different.
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96
Understanding Revelation (According to the JWs)
by brotherdan indebator (or any other current jw on the board),.
will you please explain to me the understanding of how the 7 trumpet blasts in revelation were fulfilled?
has it already happened?
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debator
We all accept then that Revelation is a hugely prophetic and we are meant to try and understand prophecy?
The 7 trumpet blasts appear in Revelation 8 and 9. They concern Angels heralding very symbolic events that happen. We witnesses see these as various events that happened during our early days up until Armageddon.
Jehovah's Witnesses found the real truths in God's Word. With God's help through his word the Bible and his spirit and they saw how much Christendom and governments had fallen away from Jehovah. In a particular convention witnesses challenged these Authorites and Christendom.
I think it is hard in the current time of scepticism to know how outstanding their stance was at that time. How much they did for the religious freedom you now enjoy today.
I can see you want me to be stumbled by our viewpoint on these blasts? But I have no problem seeing this highly symbolic prophetic language as pertaining to real men doing things that stood out from a very currupt Christendom and governmental rule but would seem insignificant to the majority. That may seem tame as fullfillment of prophecies about dramatic locust plagues and consuming flames.
But the Bible has already set a precedent that things that seem less than dramatic to sceptic eyes that are in fact are great and important events. Jesus being the biggest example of this.
The promise of salvation of mankind, bringer of God's kingdom, Ender of earthly rule under Satan. what was Jesus's life?
He was a lowly carpenter for 30 years, he became a messiah he said words in Sermons and healed people and then he was killed on a stake 3 1/2 years later. The Jews found this less than impressive and it stumbled a lot from becoming Christians.
Jesus brought words of truth to mankind not the massive destruction to ruling powers that Jews expected from their understanding of biblical prophecy.
To the Romans Jesus was just an annoying Jewish holy man that weirdly the Jews hated themselves. To the Jewish Leaders Jesus was a false messiah making blasphemous claims that incited them to extremes of hatred.
When Jesus died he had only a few hundred followers yet prophetically this is a massively predicted time.
Yet they grew....
Take another example.... God's people themselves? to the world they were an insignificant slave race that never had any real power and were a source to plunder but just mainly annoying to rule. To the Romans it would seem laughable that these humble people were God's chosen race. The christians were also just seen as an insignificant sect following yet another false messiah.
Yet they grew....
I have no problem seeing Gods prophecies being fulfilled by events and portents that appear less than impressive to skeptics that want burning flames, darkened skies, blasts from heaven and real heavy duty fulfillment, in fact quite the contrary.
(You may want to get involved with individual parts of the trumpet blasts but I thought I would get to the point of the matter and address where you are clearly going)
That you think? the declarations at the Ohio convention the, imprisonment etc of our early days as witnesses couldn't be fulfilment of some of these blasts but it really depends on what you expect from God's prophecies.
Yet we grew....
Anyone that really reads the Bible knows heavily symbolic prophecies are rarely fulfilled in the way expected of them. Could they need refining on the trumpets? Well prophecy does get refined because of it's nature as greater understanding is acquired but I am happy to go along with this one given Jehovah's track record with Prophecies and mankind.
James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? -
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*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.
by Lily Pie inhi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.
i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.
lutherans say.
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debator
Why do you ask? I'm not saying the Criminal/evildoer is going to heaven, Jesus is very clear the man gets Paradise and he comforted him with that promise.