Posts by debator

82

The Jehovahs Witness family weekend

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

having been out of the organisation for over 4 years and having finally released my kids from the hellish existance that is life as a jw, it struck me today how enjoyable our weekends are in comparison to when we were jw's.. the weekends are vital for us just now.

my wife doesn't work but i work full time from very early in the morning.

i don't get to see my beutiful children in the morning during the week.

debator

It is interesting on these threads to see how little objectiveness is apparent. All witnesses apparently have joyless weekends and drag there kids out on the ministery for 9 hours each day on the saturday and sunday. And not being a witness means perfect parents that take there kids out on special fun-filled day trips and they all bond as a family.

Meeting - ministry in reality. I see kids enjoying meetings and answering up at their own volition as well as enjoying seeing regular friends they know in the congregation. Ministry is only a couple of hours and allows for a relax in the park afterwards sometimes there is a group get-together of families and a footie game. Some kids get restless but thats kids, same thing will happen if you take a 3 year old to a movie. Attention span comes with age and schooling.

For me one of the noticiable plusses is the sheer associations and friendships. Involved dinner invites and a shared love of Jehovah. Children enjoy playing together and not having a childhood spent parked by the parents at a computer, Wii or playstation as you can see in non-witness familes.

Or watching non-witness Dad and mum leave them with babysitters so they can have their saturday party night out and screaming at the kids to be quiet on sunday till midday as they nurse their hangovers.

I say objectivity means beware of appeal to emotion exploitative generalities like the op's initial post.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi everyone

Just to add the accusation was brought up on this debate that Jehovah's witnesses gone against the SPECIFIC points in deut 18 as to what constitutes a false prophet.

Deut 18 defines what is inspired and what is false prophecy. Biblically it was easily shown that Jehovah's witnesses have not done this according to the parameters specifically set by deut 18.

Some on here have tried to redefine Godly inspiration by their own ideas on it but if we are using deut 18 specifically to accuse we should also use it specifically to acertain if what is accused is correct.

I think it has been adequately proved that according to deut 18:18-22 Witnesses are not false prophets

Deuteronomy 18:18-22 (New International Version)

18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will PUT MY WORDS in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

If you would like to lay further biblical points on the table, I will happily address them but I think the case of not being false prophets has been adequately proved for the witnesses.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Sorry for the delay I've had a busy week.

Hi TD.

All I'm trying to show is the bible allows for people to be directly contacted by God literally "Spoken too by Jehovah" and it is falsely claiming this in deut 18 which is what constitutes as being a false prophet Biblcally. Spirit guidance which doesn't involve this is I agree far ranging and indeed hard to pin down.

But since you recognise the BIble can set the parameters for different uses of holy spirit usage then you must also recognise the bible deliberately points out which specific individual spirit uses that are claimed falsely are then what constitutes false prophecy. The bible differentiates so we should too.

Hi Isaac

Since they were refering to the already inspired "Creator's promise" from the bible in Isaiah/psalms (already written prophecy) in this awake introduction then they are not claiming inspiration. Your response to this is the second part which they have decerned from bible chronology is not part of this and so they are claiming inspiration but if you recognise this second section is not part of the promise which they are refering to you have shot yourself in the foot and separated the "Creators promise of a peaceful earth" from the second part yourself.

Hi Seb

Since the bible itself allows for different uses of Holy spirit differentiating in particular the difference between falsely claiming the ability to prophecy, to speak "WORDS FROM GOD" himself (And it is this that is condemned in particular) and other less direct ways.

The minute Deut 18 specified the particular part of claiming holy spirit falsely as speaking the words of God himself as wrong then that is the dividing line.

It's like saying everyone that takes something from a shop are criminals without specifying it is the ones that are taking without paying that are criminals. The bible itself sets the parameters of wrongdoing on spirit usage, which people on here recognise because they easily pick out the time parametre but ignore the "speaking words of God parametre"

91

Why did you leave the 'Organization'?

by XPeterX in

jw
friends

in a few words.....

debator

Yes pedophilia exists everywhere, worldwide including among witnesses (Jews had laws addressing this very topic showing God expected it to happen among his people and for it to be dealt with). But accusations of coverups are from unproven biased sources.

Jehovahs witnesses were NGO's of the Department of Information for the UN. This is not a wrongdoing Paul was also a Roman citizen.

607 is only false if you say the is bible in error and consider one secular source more accurate.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

HI TD

Your response is obviously your opinion and I respect that. The bible makes it clear the spirit has many uses and yes one of them is the Bible itself. But It does allow for inspired words directly from God and guidance through spirit to be two different things. The one is a direct communication taken by a few direct forms spoken from Jehovah himself and the other is indirect more subtle guidance.

You say.

Of couse one can claim that Jehovah's Witnesses have a knowledge of the Bible superior to any other church or group and if someone, after studying the Bible comes to that conclusion, I can respect that.

And yes this is my opinion of them but I also see this as a sign of the "guidance" at work. You say any Christian group can claim it? This is patently true, in fact they all do claim it but do they show the fruitage of it? I only see the fruitage in the witnesses in a real way literally by how biblically honest they are.

They all do have access to the bible at least but then they choose to ignore it. The bible tells us that most of the major spirit gifts ended with the apostles including inspiration. History proves this to be true. But we have the bible and this "guidence" and People can listen to them or not.

Jesus's parable of the two sons works well for me on this. It's easy to say "yes" but in reality actually do the opposite "no" in action. All these Christian groups have the bible as indeed the Jews had the hebrew scriptures but does it mean they will follow it's spirit guidance? They all seek God in prayer but if they are praying to a false God will they get guidance? They can beg for guidance but if they ignore the first steps of the bible itself how can they gain more?

Hi isaac

I'm sorry I don't start threads, I don't have the time to do them real justice.

51

Bible-Believing Christians Who Don't Murder Disobedient or Alcoholic Children Are Practicing Moral Relativism and Turning Against God's Specific Instructions in Deuteronomy

by alice.in.wonderland in

meet giordanobruno:.

bible-believing christians who don't murder disobedient or alcoholic children are practicing moral relativism and turning against god's specific instructions in deuteronomy.deuteronomy 21:18-22: if a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, this our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.

then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones.

debator

It's too easy to judge with modern eyes but you have to place the Law with the people and the times. TD was the nearest showing that the law had to cover civil, moral, social responsibilities.

Imagine society now without a benefit system? Where survival meant a family working ALL together to provide the needs for everyone. When killing a man could mean his wife and children soon died in poverty afterwards. Or sons not looking after their aging parents meant they too faced starvation, ill-health and death.

It's easy to be armchair moralists over the Bible. What sort of disobedience is this talking about? just going out and having a pint with his mates or the level or disobedience that threatens the whole families survival?

While the law was fulfilled by Jesus it didn't end at all, it was a forshadow of things to come.

Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The law introduced a unique thought to the then divided tribal nations. One of Social responsibility as a people and as a cohesive group. This meant criminal laws, social laws, dietary laws, hygiene laws etc Just to ensure their survival as a nation.

125

Religion and Cults

by alice.in.wonderland in

i've heard certain people here refer to jehovah's witnesses as a mind-control cult, high-control cult; theories perpetrated for how long i don't know, but at least since the days of ray franz.

i had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure.

the last fifteen years i had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

debator

Hi Reslight

It was enjoyable to read your clear and well-researched point. Unlike the unreseached cut&paste drawn accusations it easily broke through.

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

Hi black sheep

I'm sorry I don't agree, both your quotes actually further confirm that the "Creators promise" is on the peaceful new earth which is already prophesied scripturally

Psalm 37:11 (Amplified Bible)

11 But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

The proviso of "when" is always separated and different. On top of that, are you saying their introduction to a magazine is claiming inspiration?

Bad grammer? no the best wording? yes I'll give you that. But anyone that knows anything about witnesses will know they are always refering To God's promise of a peaceful new earth in our publications.

If you want to condemn them on such weak stuff that is your choice but You cannot change that they have always denied inspiration from God so your just trying to put it on them.

If someone read this magazine introduction then read that we do not consider ourselves inspired they would realise it was not meant to be taken the way you are trying to force it to be.

I reiterate from every example in the bible they have to say they are able to "speak the very words directly from God" themselves! And not have others claim they are doing it. My goodness the pharisees were always trying to put words in christians mouths like this. Accusations of "your claiming to be.....(this, that and the other)" and all the person can do is say "We have not claimed that".

If someone genuinely believes they themselves can be "Inspired" from God at this time and say prophesies, signs from God. They will shout it out openly (as many modern Born-again churches do). Thankfully for us witnesses, it is Jehovah that does the judging though his son Jesus concerning who are the false prophets or not. Not people looking and searching for reasons to condemn witnesses. Right down to knit picking among the uninspired publications we use that are subject to error.

Hi titus

I don't see anymore of your post, it is blank?

77

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

by teel in

there was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1.

i posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose.

hopefully i got all the relevant posts.

debator

I am sorry for the delay.

Hi Isaac

You cannot put the accusation of inspiration on a group. They have to claim it for themselves. As deut 18:18 points out they have to say they are speaking the actual inspired words of God themselves. You cannot say "They put that badly so I am going to accuse them of claiming inspiration from God by it". Thats not how being a false prophet works biblically.

The scriptures on Hananiah say he directly claimed to say the inspired words of God himself against Jeremiah. There is no comparison between him and witnesses accept the one you fabricated. The witnesses have always denied openly that they have any inspiration from God.

Jeremiah 28:10-11 (New International Version)

10 Then the prophet Hananiah took the yoke off the neck of the prophet Jeremiah and broke it, 11 and he said before all the people, "This is what the LORD says: 'In the same way will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon off the neck of all the nations within two years.' " At this, the prophet Jeremiah went on his way.

I must say while I find you points interesting Isaac but I do not agree with them.

Hi Psacra

You are using circular reasoning. To say you utter God-given prophecies is to claim inspiration from God they are both the same thing. Witnesses have never claimed inspiration from God (in fact openly deny it) and they have never made unique inspired Prophecies. Any understandings they have can all be discerned from bible chronology and already written prophecies from the bible:- "Times, time and half" "day for a year", "This generation will by no means pass away" (Jesus's own words), signs of eathquakes, pestilences wars, "disgusting thing" etc. The bible itself says "let the reader use discernment/understanding" on them so we are expected to look out for Bible based signs and check bible chronologies (as the jews did to be in expectation of the messiah) and draw from them in preparation for Armageddon. This is why they were written. The bible isn't just a good read but a usuable tool to keep us "ready".

You might not agree with what the witnesses have concluded from bible chronology and Bible prophecies concerning the end but this is not claiming to be able to be "inspired of God".

You basically are accusing the witnesses of using the Bible too much. Can a person use the bible too much?

Hi TD

In essence yes, but there is the point that the people themselves also have to claim they have "Active guidance" (inspiration from God directly away from the bible writings) as you put it. For them to come under the judgement of being a prophet or false prophet as the Bible writers understood this point to be. Calling it "God-breathed" (and your right the bible coming into being itself "inspired writings" is the best example of this) they had to claim this active inspiration.

Passive guidance is as you put rightly is using the bible but I would also include guidance from spirit after asking in prayer to this. This is were the confusions sets in.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.

We must not put a man-made limit on spirit saying it can only act through direct inspiration from God. The bible itself is called the "sword of the spirit" so showing that using that is also being spirit guided. The bible itself also differentiates between the actives Gifts of the spirit that the apostles got and what we are left with after they stop.

1 Corinthians 13:8-9 (New International Version)

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

This is a whole new discusion in itself.

But my point for the sake of this discussion, is solely on what qualifies specifically to be a false prophet biblically and this is to claim direct inspiration from God to be able to "say the very words of God" as per the qualifications in Deut 18:18-22. If we them add Jesus's qualifications for false prophets in this time of the end aka doing signs, miracles, claiming to be Christ himself. then this even less applies to the witnesses.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply it was a pleasure to read and reply too. Your summary is fair I just had to qualify it with spirit guidance though prayer.

Hi black sheep

Like I said to TD

God openly says that we will get spirit guidance. how this manifests itself is a large subject for debate itself. but I reiterate people are not condemned for claiming spirit guidance/help but for claiming to "speak the words of God" himself falsely.

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

Thank you everyone for taking time to reply to me.

125

Religion and Cults

by alice.in.wonderland in

i've heard certain people here refer to jehovah's witnesses as a mind-control cult, high-control cult; theories perpetrated for how long i don't know, but at least since the days of ray franz.

i had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure.

the last fifteen years i had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

debator

Definition of Cult changes from person to person or from scholar to scholar. Older definitions require there to be an excess of religious ceremonies and ritualistic practises. More modern Viewpoints are anti-leadership and anyone having an authoritive position that is easily abused.

Much of these newer definitions were apawned by the Waco incident, among a few other similar incidents. Were an anti-christ-like figure instead of caring for his flock brings great harm both mentally and physically on them.

I feel personally the word "Cult" is a bit of a trigger word for both the accused and the accuser.

A so-called "are you in a cult list" usually involves a set of very clever deliberately general cold-reading verbose questions that are so suggestive they invite the reader to define their own experience with any group within the spacious parametres of the questions. The person hen supplies the answers themselves and finds 100% of the time they are in a cult.

A way to see how much they questions manipulate you is to apply a workplace boss or govenment leader to these questions and find they too fit the parametres.