Posts by debator

20

Staying "Loyal" and King David/Saul Question...

by Confucious in

ok.... had a good discussion with a jdub friend.

good friend.. and i gave the argument, "hey.., loyalty to god trumps loyalty to organization.".

basically, that when your concious disagrees with "god's organization" that you should stand up and say something.. then he gave me a good point about king david and how saul was the organization at the time but since it was god's appointed one - that david didn't work to "overthrow" saul.. thoughts?.

debator

Good points trueScript also the assumption here is that being an organisation is a position of wrongdoing itself? so the whole concept of flock/congregation/holy nation/organisation as something that is to be rejected is a false one. Especially given after Saul's Death David himself became head of the nation of Israel without changing any of the structure of command itself.

This begs the question if some on here are truly rejecting witnesses or would if possible do an about-turn viewing themselves as "David" and become the new rulers of God's people?

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

You don't think trying to oust, influence off this site everyone in favour of witnesses that you see on here, as making sure you are goning to get your ears tickled by opinions that won't challenge your current position? I get this from your introduction of your initial starawman which can have no other purpose than to guilt me off this site.

I do not see this site as a haven for ex-Jws, it is too public. There are more closed-shop ones that have moderators that make sure only one side is heard and I would get short-shift by them. This site also promotes itself as public for ALL opinions for debate and you do get them all. I see people often come on here just for normal info on witnesses etc.

I have never posted on here for those that have made-up their minds about witnesses but for those that are still able to see how important it is to be one of Jehovah's people in this time and can see through the propaganda of some ex-jws on here.

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, Jehovah is our God.' "

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

Only if you consider this forum your place of worship?

47

How can they look at babies........

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

............and really believe that it is right that god will destroy them soon?.

a baby is a beutiful, innocent vulnerable little human being.

how can they really believe that it is right and just that god destroys millions of babies and children?.

debator

Hi outlaw

Despite that your need to keep addressing me by weird names, I will answer you this once.

Jehovah is originator of all life and can take as well as give it back to anyone man, woman or baby in his memory if he choses too. We humans kill knowing we cannot give them life back again.

About Armageddon Jesus says...

Matthew 24:22
If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive,

His point is we are already spiralling towards self-destruction. You do not know at what point Jehovah brings Armageddon. if we have already made it impossible for our offspring to survive.

This thread is simply putting human fallibility, imperfection and inability to save life on Jehovah without trusting him.

In some places in Africa 60% of the population have aids, children born into death and suffering before they have a chance to live and no one even offers them the life prolonging drugs we have. And if they get them they themselves cannot have children. They are heading towards self annihilation as a nation. Could anyone have imagined that even two decades ago?

Be careful of Judging God by human standards and realities.

47

How can they look at babies........

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

............and really believe that it is right that god will destroy them soon?.

a baby is a beutiful, innocent vulnerable little human being.

how can they really believe that it is right and just that god destroys millions of babies and children?.

debator

Define the parameters of what constitutes destroying babies and culpability?

Should we condemn Jehovah before he has done Armageddon without addressing examples of it happening around us literally by humanity themselves?

How can a serial murderer condemn someone else who they just assume are going to commit murder?

47

How can they look at babies........

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

............and really believe that it is right that god will destroy them soon?.

a baby is a beutiful, innocent vulnerable little human being.

how can they really believe that it is right and just that god destroys millions of babies and children?.

debator

How can people justify 4 million+ abortions of babies a year in our world? 1000+ babies killed in wars? 1000+ babies killed in avoidable famine and poverty? etc Is God going to destroy babies or destroy those destroying babies?

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

Hi cantleave

Doesn't it disturb you now? It says more about you than it does me? to be honest it only saddened me that you have got to such a place that verbal abuse of what you once loved is your modus operandi now. You do not make becoming like you very tempting

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

While this topic is about strawmen arguments. I found it ironic that people on here do not accept that they themselves use them, often misdirecting a topic with them? anyone honest enough to admit their usage on these forums against witnesses?

Hi Its me

You opinion and conscience Tell you that you now consider yourself and apostate on an apostate site...think about the consequences of that position for a minute.

Thank you for clarifying your point, Demon possession itself suggests a lack of freewill but since Satan is the "ruler of the air" showing this whole world lies under his influence and so many things could be used as things influenced by him, including most forms of entertainment. You assumed he meant demon possesion when more in line with Jw teaching, is that we consider Satan's influence more likely when people still have the choice in themselves like with entertainment, internet, recreation etc where they need to show due care and attention rather than total avoidance which is impossible while we live in satan's world.

Hi Peacedog

I have no interest in peeking at proganda and actively avoid web pages like Jwfacts.com or 4Jehovah.com that is a trinitarian site designed to draw in ex-JWs that are fine examples of propaganda in their bias. But putting up a defense of witnesses for the People on a public forum that I know a lot are not apostates and need to see how heavily biased some opinions are on here, is for me worthwhile. but it is a personal conscience thing. There is no getting past that witnesses as a whole are a self-regulating religion for each individual against God's teachings. Warnings are given to make sure we understand Biblical principles but we have to put them into practice ourselves personally. Public rebuke cannot cover everything.

25

Belief Polerization: A possible reason JWs are more convinced when facing critical information.

by bohm in

jw
friends

suppose two people, alice and bob, have different views upon some controversial issue.

we might imagine alice is a jehovahs witness and bob is an doubting relative, and the issue could be: is jehovahs witnesses gods organization.

now we give them both new information, some favorable to the issue being true, others unfavorable.

debator

Hi bohm

May I question your example. While both are given this information, what about checking if there is any basis of truth in the information?

Paying "millions" is provably true of the catholics but patently untrue of witnesses with these type of cases. from my research the only known figures for settlement s atm is about 50,000 with any witness case.

And when you talk about polerization doesn't it reflect also how biased a group are if they accept anything negative to uphold their basic anti-witness position without questioning it's truthfulness?

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

I actually agree with you Slim. Discussion on obeisance really takes away from the fact the Bible clearly shows doctrinely only Jehovah should be worshipped. And though the Early christians recognised Jesus as his son and saviour they did not feel the need to worship him as they did his father honour? yes! but worship? No.