the greatest benefit to come from jehovah's witnesses was the introduction of honest investigation into the.
claims of christianity based on the bible.. exposing error was the gimmick.. replacing doctrine or ritual with door to door activity was the greatest failure to follow truth where it leads.. .
mainstream religion in pastor russell's day was set in stone.
Kensho, I do believe that some KH libraries still have those old books and possibly bound volumes. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that there's probably some old books in your KH library. Like Quentin said, wine and "ROSES". May the "GRACE" of God be with you.
Yes, there is a riddle here, it is solvable, and it will lead you to what you seek. I can't be any more candid that this because of the WT trollers. heh.
Nothing is true. Everything is permissible.
as time goes on i find it a real challenge to keep my sanity while still in "the truth" especially after considering all the rsearch i have been doing about the org.
that i have been very active in for almost 4 decades.
i have managed to be removed as an elder while staying in good standing (prayers-reading,mic carring etc.
as time goes on i find it a real challenge to keep my sanity while still in "the truth" especially after considering all the rsearch i have been doing about the org.
that i have been very active in for almost 4 decades.
i have managed to be removed as an elder while staying in good standing (prayers-reading,mic carring etc.
Kensho, I truly feel for you and the others who are in a similar conundrum. Maintaining sanity in this world is hard enough without having to deal with things like religious fanaticism. Throw that on top of it all and you have the recipe for a very difficult life indeed.
Myself, I have been dealing with what you are describing for quite some time... quite some time indeed. On top of that feeling though, are the feelings I can't shake of missed opportunities, missed loves, friends I've lost because of loyalty to the hive, etc etc. I'm sure you've dealt with the same thing. In fact, I have an uncanny feeling that we RELATE to each other more than is apparently obvious here. But I will try to answer your question as best I can and quickly. I have to worry about eyes over my shoulder when I'm on this forum.
The way I deal with the heavy sighs I want to let out when I'm at the meetings (though I don't go as often as I used to) hearing the same thing over and over again and hearing the prejudice comments, the laughable expressions of uniquity, and otherwise ignorant behavior and speech of everyone there, is to treat it the same way I do when visiting another country in which their customs differ greatly from my own or how I view those who smoke cigarettes in public or in front of their small children. Sure, some people do what they do because they're frikkin @$$holes and douchebags. But some people genuinely have no idea that what they're doing is necessarily wrong or harmful. Did you know that most men and women in America do not wash their hands after using the restroom and would gladly shake your hand JUST after having rubbed their palms all over their nasty sweaty crotch area? (yes, the next time you shake someone's hands, go ahead, take a sniff at your palm... yep, that's the familiar scent of genitals alright!) I dare say most don't even THINK about how disrespectful or offensive that could be to certain others. They just don't think about it.
I try to view these people as beneath me. Not in an arrogant sort of way like I'm better than them, but better off. It's like when you see a bum drinking himself into a slumber. How can you blame the guy? I try to do as Jesus did, feel sorry for them. Have pity. They do what they do because they're just not as good as me. They're not smart enough or didn't have the same opportunity as me. Like children. You can't (or at least SHOULDN'T) get mad at babies for doing something that pisses you off because they just don't know. Too innocent or not educated enough. Sometimes when my daughter does something she shouldn't have done, I don't get frustrated, I of course have mercy on her because I know she doesn't know better. Viewing the people in your Kingdom Hall as what they really are, sheep, should help alleviate some of the stress. Feel sorry for them.
As far as "Walking the Line" goes, I think you might need to use your experience as an elder, a shepard, to help those close to you. The same way you were an influence or a force that stirred them in one direction, you can obviously use that same talent to bring them back. Remember, Holy Spirit most likely had nothing to do with their progress in the organization. (granted it's possible the universe preferred for that individual to be a part of JW rather than where they were before, or it was a good starting point for change) When I go back and think about some of the people I had "helped" into the truth, I wonder how much of that was the Deity's doing or just my own charismatic persona. Hitler led an entire nation of Nazi Crazies. You think Holy Spirit was behind him? So this means all that you have at stake, your friends, family, etc, is still salvageable by your own hands. Maybe you can have a family Bible study night where you ask questions. Get them thinking along the lines of the wicked Israelite kings and how even though they were wicked, they were still Jehovah's annointed ones, and the country was supposed to follow them and the priests. Yet, everyone has their own accountability. Get them thinking THAT way first, that perhaps it's possible the GB is NOT what we had given them the credit for. After a while, the rest will start to unravel.
I know my post went everywhere, but I had to keep stopping and resuming and I'm tired after a long day of flights. Good health to you all, may the Deity bless you in your efforts to find truth. Notice I said "truth" not THE truth. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted (wink wink)
if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.
the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.
we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.
OH, when I said (helping Israelites win the battle) I was referring to the Sun standing still, which would be the result of the cheat code God may have put in there. heh
if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.
the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.
we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Wow, what an interesting thread and again, SBC, I commend thee for your very well thought out responses. Truly if an alien from another planet came to look upon us here on Earth, they might very well see things the way you do.
And speaking of aliens, one of my theories is that "Yahweh" might very well be a well-meaning alien, whether he lives a long time or is simply replaced by another to take his place and keep the appearance of the same (kind of like Raz-Algul in Batman) for our seeming benefit. Crazy, I know, but you can't say alien gods are any more crazy or disprovable than a god God. All the miracles of the Bible could very well be supported by an advanced technology. Remember all the rumbling in Mt Sinai? Spaceship, anyone? Sorry, I digress!
Ok, as far as breaking rules and what not, I always compare everything in life to Computer Science, programming, or even video games. Remember Contra on the NES? Remember how hard it was? You only had 3 lives and were expected to beat the ENTIRE game with just that!!! Impossible, but rules are rules. Of course, every kid knew that if you wanted to beat the game (help the Israelites win the battle) you had to put in the Konami CHEAT CODE (up up down down left right left right b a START). Now here's what's interesting: even though the game is technically BROKEN at this point (because the rules are that you are NOT supposed to have 30 lives) you can continue and even FINISH the game. Perhaps the same holds true with God and his own rules.
I know what you might be retorting: the programmers, in making Contra, actually set up that code, so technically it wasn't cheating. Ok, fine. But do you remember the Game Genie? That was game hacking in early form. Granted, SOME of those codes caused infinite loops (remember Super Mario and -1 world?) or other glitches that made the game unfinishable or produced strange results. But generally you could hack the game, "break the rules" and still finish with favorable and expected results.
The same might hold true with this world we live in. The programmer can change, add, or delete whatever he wants HOWever he wants without too many universe breaking consequences.
if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.
the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.
we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.
I'm new here, but I must say, I am very intrigued by Cheezits method of ... well, I guess debate for lack of a better word, because I don't think he is "debating" in the common understanding of the word, but I use "debate" for the real meaning of it.
SBC, your insight and ability to remain unbiased is noteworthy. Your comment about focusing on the bad stuff and not the positive has always been trying to erupt from my mind, but never vocalized. This is a comment that can be used ANYwhere.
For instance, if a JW family member or friend were to ever readily point out the mistakes and shortcomings of another religion, which, let's just admit it, they all do, we could easily reply with, "Yeah, but you know there are some shortcomings in your own belief system (what with doctrinal changes, imperfections, etc etc) and that's a negative. Yet you choose to focus on the positive. What's the difference?"
Almost sad how I see so many people leave the Witnesses only to ENGULF themselves in another equally irrational religious conundrum. I see that a lot here. Then there are those who go completely and disrespectfully bonkers. I say disrespectfully because while I don't feel there is anything intrinsically wrong with stronger language, I know that I wouldn't just drop the F bomb around anybody. Yet some users on this forum do that, disregarding the effect it might have on someone who is just "auditing" the website. All that disrespect does is strengthen the resolve of those peeking out of the JW organization to remain close, because the world outside is dark and demonic. I don't agree with WT methodology, but if every single human on the planet were a Witness, I am forced to admit that I would feel safer and my outlook on life would be more positive.
Sorry for going on a tangent here, I have been needing to relieve my bladder since I started the post.
(not sure if this is the right category, but....).
halloween at my house!!!.
13 ghosts floating in the breeze... over my mini-cemetary.... .
Hi, All.
Wow, I must say I'm a little surprised to find such dedication and hard work put into this set piece. Well, not really, I see those kinds of things all the time in my area. Good job on the decorations. Looks like a lot of money was put into it. But then again, for me, Time IS Money. But I have to say I'm not quite understanding this... ha ha, at the very top of this site you see the URL JEHOVAHS-WITNESS.net. And then, just below that, I'm looking at photos of Halloween decorations. I'm not sure I understand the scope of this website. Can someone enlighten me without being judgemental? I've been trolling these forums and I know there are all types in it: Ex JWs who wish to remain Christian of some sort who convert to another form of Christianity, then those who become agnostic, then those who become atheist, then most of whom are lurking in the Kingdom Halls, etc etc. But I haven't been trolling the board long enough to understand the mental metamorphosis that goes from being a JW to celebrating Halloween. I dare say, even some fundamental Baptists don't celebrate Halloween.
Please don't judge, Zid, I don't even know you, and I haven't looked at your posts (since it's not that easy to search anyway) to determine what your "alignment" is. But I thought it was funny that I'm at a website that has as it's header JEHOVAH'S WITNESS at the top and then to see something so NOT Witness in its contents.
I'm not judging, so please don't judge me in your comments. Thank you :)
i don't understand... with all the people who are contra-watchtower - i mean all the books, all the websites, all the forums dedicated to "exposing" the watchtower "truth" - why has no one group actually just gone ahead and really exposed it?.
all the proceeds from crisis of conscience or whatever other books (many on amazon.com) or whatever spare money and time people have to create these forums for people of varying degrees of craziness and experience could all go towards one simple solution: infiltrate the governing body "enclave" meeting room with bugged mics and a hidden camera.
really, why hasn't anyone thought of that?
MMXIV, you're comments reveal that there is some insight in your words. But the problem with the Silent Lambs stuff (and I truly do not mean to diminish any pain or scoff at any "victories" or offend anyone who may have been a "silent lamb") is that it is number one: rare. I know of NO one personally or even by third degree who has ever undergone something like that. Not sure, but I think it happens in southern states and rural country bumpkin places where porn is not readily available over high speed broadband! LOL And as far as knowing people, let me just say I probably would have 2000 connections on facebook of JWs in my state alone because of so many parties I used to go to and going out dancing and stuff... yeah, we were pretty wild "youths."
The other thing about Silent Lambs is that it's very... how do you say, "he said/ she said" once again. Since there is no "official" support of child molesters, you can't really "prove" that the WTS is supportive of pedophilia. That almost sounds retarded to say, cuz we all know that WTS doesn't condone pedophilia. You could say "tolerate" but again, no official wording on that. Officially, they say those will be destroyed... Another problem amongst ex JWs or "grew up JWs" is that usually there is this EMOTIONAL (albeit negative) connection to the religion of their parents, who may have been poor parents to begin with. Wouldn't matter what religion it was, instead of "properly" inculcating (or indoctrinating if you will) their kids, they force their kids to go to the meetings, say they're not "allowed" to do whatevers, so on so on. I've known probably a hundred of those kids who grew up with such a bad taste in their mouth, that as soon as a "silent lamb" documentary comes on 20/20 they are SO ready to jump and say "SEE! This isn't God's organization!!" Yeah, just like there aren't the occasional down syndrome kids in a batch... right! The exception is never the rule.
It may seem to some that this doesn't hold any significance, but the difference between writing a book (and I'd still very much like to have a dialogue with Franz) about your PERSONAL experiences and getting a bunch of people on TV to tell the world how they were improperly touched is that it's that! Personal. Unsanctioned acts. Oh, sure, you could say, "Yeah, but the Elders never kicked him out!!" Look, the "Elders" are NOT WTS. Hell, even individual members of the GB are not WTS or Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Paul is not The Bible. Neither are any of the books individually. The point is you can't OBJECTIVELY condemn "the Organization" or "Slave" for things a few guys, head or peon, may have done, sexually or otherwise.
Now this UN stuff, Blood stuff, doctrine flip flopping, THESE kinds of things hold more weight, in my opinion, because it's DOCTRINE or "LIGHT" or evidence, or lack thereof, of God's approval. (things that individuals in the organization do can't count - remember Solomon, David, Lot, Peter... the list goes on) So if you can video or audio record the way decisions are made, surely we could make a dent into the consciousness of the entire population of Lemmings. Or if you could get OFFICIAL documentation that proves some of these things. I'm not talking about some stupid scan on the internet, cuz, dudes... I've seen a LOT of stuff on the internet. Does it mean it's real? Of course not, there's photoshop. I'm not stupid enough to believe everything I read just cuz I hope it's true so that this damn religion ends and I can feel better about myself for rebelling against my parents and treating them badly as a teenager. If you want to leave there are ways to do it, shoot, I'm proof of that, and I've never disrespected my mother. My sister on the other hand, different story. She's the typical "grew up as a witness, hate IT and THEM altogether." She's the first to jump on the silent lambs bandwagon or believe any story that may come up -> yes, cuz she's got an ax to grind.
Anyway, if you don't want to get in on this, that's fine. It's scary, most likely none of you are ninja material. I've read some posts and I see how a lot of you are scared and would rather hide behind the safety of a computer monitor. That's understandable. You're probably business men, Wal-Mart stockers, nurses, teachers, etc etc. This kind of thinking doesn't even enter your mind. And I suppose it's borderline terrorism. Oh well.
i don't understand... with all the people who are contra-watchtower - i mean all the books, all the websites, all the forums dedicated to "exposing" the watchtower "truth" - why has no one group actually just gone ahead and really exposed it?.
all the proceeds from crisis of conscience or whatever other books (many on amazon.com) or whatever spare money and time people have to create these forums for people of varying degrees of craziness and experience could all go towards one simple solution: infiltrate the governing body "enclave" meeting room with bugged mics and a hidden camera.
really, why hasn't anyone thought of that?
StAnn, I DO have to look into that. I suppose the info I have is wrong, then, and so will do further research. LeavingWT, you know, I guess you're absolutely right. So why did I start to question it, then? What separates me from the rest? MsDucky, indoctrination is mighty powerful, but again, why did it not work on me? Or even Franz?
i don't understand... with all the people who are contra-watchtower - i mean all the books, all the websites, all the forums dedicated to "exposing" the watchtower "truth" - why has no one group actually just gone ahead and really exposed it?.
all the proceeds from crisis of conscience or whatever other books (many on amazon.com) or whatever spare money and time people have to create these forums for people of varying degrees of craziness and experience could all go towards one simple solution: infiltrate the governing body "enclave" meeting room with bugged mics and a hidden camera.
really, why hasn't anyone thought of that?
Thanks for the welcomes! ... I think! LOL!
I hear you guys. Let me do this one at a time.
"Feel better now?" --> I didn't post so that I could feel better. I have no idea why you'd ask that other than to perhaps make me sound stupid. If that is the case, then do YOU feel better now? If it was a sincere question, let me think... hm, yeah, I think I DO feel a little better. Thanks for asking.
"you will have a lot of suicides to deal with. Are you OK with that?" --> Hm, good question, Black Sheep. No, not really. But would it be my fault or is that a choice they'd make for themselves?
StAnn, as far as the UN thing goes... honestly, and totally from an objective point of view, both arguments (for and against WT) are really lacking some details. Nobody knows FOR SURE if they GB wanted to sign up with the UN "for the hell of it" or even "to get some kind of political protection." As far as I know, the UN hasn't come out and said, "Yeah, WTS totally signed up with us because of some political scheme." Then the WT says, "we needed a library card to use their systems," which, is valid enough of a point. If you aren't signed up, you can't use their library. It's a he said / she said situation there, and I believe that there are other more valid reasons to doubt WTS. But yes, you're right, if it IS 100% true, then it's something to hold up against them. As far as the GB concocting a scheme and saying, "oh, we were just pretending" I think the majority of people would see through that. You can't save them all, but then again you can't convince everybody that religion in general is a scam. Which brings me to my next point:
EndofMysteries, CageFighter, Heaven: you're right. It's all just a big guessing game. And 7M IS a pimple. But we can start somewhere. One soda can on the side of the road is even less than a pimple when u consider all the garbage in my town. Does that mean I don't pick it up? I dunno, maybe some of you are smokers who throw their butts out their car window yet preach about being green and saving the environment. But I consider exposing WT as "doing my part" (just like picking up a soda can). First that one (WT), then the rest. Why that one first? Maybe cuz it's what hits home to me. Just like my rain water barrel. Saving clean water is first on my green agenda, and then I'll do the rest.
MadSweeney... now that's a GREAT idea. Of course, the only problem with that is that most JW's would never visit. Maybe you'd have to advertise it as a museum that "honors" the JW. Perhaps say at the end of the tour, "Despite all this crazy stuff and suspect activity, modern day JW's as PEOPLE are generally nice, and believe with all their hearts that they're being directed by their Lord. So be nice to them, have pity on them." You might get more JW visitors like that, heh.
Bohm, yes, there ARE actually devices like that, but they're expensive. Shotgun mics are used by the media often. Then there are the ones used by "security" agencies that are even more accurate and powerful.
Gladiator, that's funny.
Alright, enough ranting for now. Cynicism is ok, I understand most of us are probably frustrated. Who knows how many of you are still going to the meetings secretly wishing for some sign, speaking against in hopes of being wrong, or going because they want to please family, or going just enough to avoid a sheperding call in which you might have to say something that gets you on a 6 month cruise on the ship... the disfellowship. I hear ya. But I really think that if we could start at the top, right at the top, and PROVE - not just a he said she said internet game - but really PROVE there's no holy spirit regardless of light getting brighter imperfect, whatever... it might help. The end.
