Posts by djeggnog

29

What's the Watchtower's current stance on...

by FifthOfNovember in

the big bang?

-do they leave room for it as a possibility for jehovah to have created the universe?

(i heard an elder say once that the society doesn't necessarily rule out the big bang as a possiblity).

djeggnog

@Anony Mous wrote:

Even along this calculation, shit has been here longer than 7 * 7,000 years. If God created Adam at the end of the 6th day, how come the oldest homo sapiens remains are 42,000 years old?

@djeggnog wrote:

You may have heard scientists or others claim that mankind has been in existence for as long as 42,000 years, while one would conclude from reading the Bible that this number is quite high, but one has to choose whether to believe these scientists or to believe what the Bible has to say about this, for using the Bible, one can prove that man has been in existence for a little more than 6,000 years (6,036 years to be exact!) while science cannot prove that mankind has been in existence for as long as 42,000 years.

Science HAS proved that mankind has been in existence for AT LEAST 42,000 years...

No, it hasn't.

If you don't believe in nuclear decay, the speed of light, relativity and other parts of chemistry, pure physics and math (which is used to accurately calculate these numbers rather than guesstimate whether or not Adam & Eve lived for a certain time period) because your religion says you can't accept them then what can you believe in? If that would be true you can neither claim that God put in these laws of nature or is omnipotent and everything would be very chaotic in this Universe, nothing would be sure and we wouldn't be able to exist, fly to the moon or see beyond our sun and the Bible would be wrong in that way then <- the reverse of this line of logic is frequently quoted in JW literature.

Please, if you feel up to it, read what you wrote here and write exactly what it was you meant to say. I don't want to try to work out what it was you intended to say, but whatever it is you were saying here made absolutely no sense to me.

@djeggnog

29

What's the Watchtower's current stance on...

by FifthOfNovember in

the big bang?

-do they leave room for it as a possibility for jehovah to have created the universe?

(i heard an elder say once that the society doesn't necessarily rule out the big bang as a possiblity).

djeggnog

@the max:

can you please give me you views comments on a post i made yesterday re the youngest [anointed]....

I've no interest in discussing such a topic with you. My hope is an earthly one and I have no interest whatsoever in how old someone called to a hope different than mine -- a heavenly hope -- happens to be, but you are certainly know that you are free to have this discussion with anyone else here whose interest would be piqued and assuaged by discussing this particular topic with you.

What I do find interesting though is that there are so many folks here on JWN that truly believe themselves to be free of what they were taught by Jehovah's Witnesses -- free of "Watchtower dogma" as they might put it -- free of mind control and all of that, who continue to do what things they habitually did when actively one of Jehovah's Witnesses -- not that everyone here on JWN is inactive, for some folks here are fading or have faded and would have left but for some of their family still being actively Jehovah's Witnesses -- like commenting on the things they read in the Watchtower, which means that they are still reading it, or engaging in discussions about the Memorial of Christ's death, which is a topic rather peculiar to Jehovah's Witnesses that hardly anyone in Christendom's churches discusses, or discussions about the circuit or district conventions, even those that enjoy quoting things here taken directly from the Society's publications in order to prove their points in contention, including quotes taken from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

There is a word that comes to my mind, @the max, and if I'm being honest here, the folks here on JWN could not aptly be described as being "free" at all, but the word that comes to my mind is delusional, considering the fact that Jehovah stated quite clearly in His word, the Bible -- and He cannot lie -- that "they will all know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them." (Jeremiah 31:34; Hebrews 8:11; Titus 1:2) You do recall, don't you, what Jesus said at Matthew 5:19 about the least ones that "will be called 'least' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens,"and about whom Jesus was speaking? Jesus was referring to the same ones to whom his Father referred at Jeremiah 31:34, the ones that know Jehovah, but "do not obey the good news" themselves. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

@djeggnog

29

What's the Watchtower's current stance on...

by FifthOfNovember in

the big bang?

-do they leave room for it as a possibility for jehovah to have created the universe?

(i heard an elder say once that the society doesn't necessarily rule out the big bang as a possiblity).

djeggnog

@Anony Mous wrote:

The Watchtower of 15 October 1969, page 622:

"More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind’s life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from man’s creation by Jehovah God would begin within less than ten years ... Would not, then, the end of six millenniums of mankind’s laborious enslavement under Satan the Devil be the fitting time for Jehovah God to usher in a Sabbath millennium for all his human creatures? Yes, indeed!"

Ok, six millenniums of mankind's enslavement under Satan's rulership came to an end by the year 1975, but what doesn't add up?

@djeggnog wrote:

What are these "creationist days" to which you refer? Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach and never have taught a thing about "creationist days, so I'd like to know what these "days" are, and what is [it] you meant here when you wrote that "if 1975 didn't match with the creationist days"?

@Anony Mous wrote:

No comment ;-) They do teach about the days of creation - you have to reject the whole Bible if you don't accept that.

Again, what are these "creationist days" to which you refer, and what did you mean by "if 1975 didn't match with the creationist days"?

@Anony Mous wrote:

You can't take everything the Bible (or the JW) say literally or interpret it according to anyone's faith.

@djeggnog wrote:

While Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe and have never taught that everything that one reads in the Bible must be understood to be literal, two questions: (1) What role do you believe faith has with Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the Bible? and (2) what role do you believe faith has with anyone else's (other than Jehovah's Witnesses') interpretation of the Bible?

@Anony Mous wrote:

Faith has nothing to do with the JW's interpretation of the Bible imho since their 'faith' changes every 6 months. Thus it cannot be faith that drives a JW's interpretation of the Bible since faith conveys the thought of confidence, trust, firm persuasion (also Insight book).

I agree with you that faith conveys the idea of confidence, the idea of the kind of trust that you might place in someone or have in some particular thing, but you contradict yourself when you suggest that the faith of Jehovah's Witnesses "changes every 6 months." But how can someone or some particular thing that undergoes a change after six months' time be said to be on a par with confidence, with faith? You're not making any sense to me, so let me provide an example to you of what faith is, so that you might understand one way in which faith is synonymous with confidence, but that faith cannot change "every 6 months" as you claim because I really don't think you have a clue as to what faith is, generally speaking, or what it means for someone to have it.

Three months in advance, you book a flight for you, your spouse and your two minor children on some airline to fly 1,800 miles to where many of your relatives plan to gather for the next family reunion. You are a part of a pretty large family, and this is the kind of thing that your family does every odd year, so just as you did in July of 2001, 2003, 2005, 2007 and 2009, you have booked a flight this year in July of 2011 and will no doubt be booking a flight two years from now to the next family reunion after this one in July of 2013.

Now you have hope that you will see all of your family members at the family reunion this July, which is an assured expectation that you will definitely get to see your two favorite cousins and your favorite uncle will be there because you know for a fact that they, like you and your spouse, will always make an effort to be present among the attendees at the family reunion, even though these realities won't demonstrate themselves until July when you believe will behold their smiling faces when you and your family arrive at this year's family reunion.

Note that the confidence that you have in this scenario in the fact that there will be a family reunion this July is what drove you to buy four round-trip plane tickets for your family some three months in advance, and plane tickets are typically less expensive when purchased more than a month out, so your confidence brought you a side-benefit as well. Another word for "confidence" is faith, for "faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

Without faith, you wouldn't have purchased your plane tickets three months in advance, for lacking faith, you would have spent a prohibitive amount of money buying plane tickets in the week before the family reunion is scheduled to take place when tickets prices are go for an extremely higher cost, but your faith made you do things in expectation that there was going to be a family reunion and you needed to buy these plane tickets for the trip in advance.

Note that the confidence that you have in this scenario in the fact that you will see your favorite relatives at the family reunion, so that you don't procrastinate about buying the plane tickets in advance of the trip, but, instead, you picked up your telephone and purchased the planet tickets in advance believing the reunion would take place and your favorite relatives would be among the attendees. Another example:

You and your brother-in-law (b-i-l) live about 10 miles away from one another, but you both work at the same oil refinery, and because your car is in a repair facility to have a new starter installed, since the one that is being replaced has begun to fail you after only two years of service, your b-i-l offers to drive to your home tomorrow morning and pick you up for work and to drop you off at the car repair facility after work so that you can pick up your car.

Now while you have hope that your b-i-l will pick you up so that you will have transportation to work tomorrow, even though this reality will not demonstrate itself until tomorrow morning when you believe you will behold your b-i-l's smiling face when you and your family arrive at this year's family reunion, which is an assured expectation that you will definitely get a ride to work tomorrow, even though this reality won't demonstrate itself until tomorrow morning when your b-i-l is expected to show up at your home.

Note that the confidence that you have in this scenario in the fact that you will be getting a ride to work, so that there is no need on your part to hire a rental car for tomorrow so that you can drive yourself to work, and today you did change your routine a bit so that you got up at an time earlier than you would normally get up, and got dressed for work a half-hour earlier than you typically would be getting dressed.

Again, another word for "confidence" is faith, for "faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." Without faith, you wouldn't have been ready to go and waiting for your b-i-l to arrive at your home the next morning, for lacking faith you would have incurred the expense of a rental car, but your faith made you do things in expectation that your b-i-l was coming to pick you up that morning.

Most other religions have faith that the Bible or at least the creation account has to be taken literal and some hold that scientific findings will redeem their view eventually.

Everyone will have their own viewpoints regarding creation, but in your saying this, you're saying what now?

@djeggnog wrote:

How do you know that Jehovah's Witnesses are "right" about anything? What makes you say that Jehovah's Witnesses are right if science and what the Bible says "match up"?

@Anony Mous wrote:

I didn't say they were right but their viewpoint comes the closest to REALITY and PROOF.

Whose viewpoint comes the closest to reality and proof? What does science teach as far as science is concerned that the Bible does not teach or "match up" with science? Please name one thing besides evolution, since evolution is only a theory and not provable.

@djeggnog wrote:

What is "proven" now? That the universe was alive? That the earth was alive? That living things have been on the earth for more than 12,000 years? I'm thinking now about dinosaurs which were obviously here for much longer than 12,000 years, so from where does this "12,000 years ago" number come? Are you saying that "12,000 years ago" is the view of an evolutionist, the view of a creationist, or what exactly were you saying here?

@Anony Mous wrote

12,000 years ago is the longest stretch of time from the viewpoint of most classical creationist and old-style JW's (now to Adam + 6 creation days of 1000 years).

I don't know what you mean: Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe and have never taught that each of the creative days were 1,000 years in length, so why do you mention 1,000 years at all as if Jehovah's Witnesses have been believed or taught to this effect?

It is PROVEN by the laws of physics that light was existent before the first day of creation in which God 'created' light.

And your point is what? That the Bible contradicts science?

According to JW's we are living in the 7th creation day and it's nearly the end (<1,000 years away)....

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that we are living during the seventh creative day when Jehovah rested from all of His creative work, and we know that mankind has reached the 6,000 plateau back in 1975, but since we do not know when Adam's wife, Eve, was created, we cannot possibly know when the sixth creative day ended and the seventh creative day ended, and we speculate that if we did know when Eve was created, then we speculate that we would be able to calculate with accuracy when the 1,000-year Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus would begin, for we would need to know, not when 6,000 years had lapsed from Adam's creation forward, but when 6,000 years had lapsed from Eve's creation forward, assuming a 7,000-year creative day.

Even along this calculation, shit has been here longer than 7 * 7,000 years. If God created Adam at the end of the 6th day, how come the oldest homo sapiens remains are 42,000 years old?

You may have heard scientists or others claim that mankind has been in existence for as long as 42,000 years, while one would conclude from reading the Bible that this number is quite high, but one has to choose whether to believe these scientists or to believe what the Bible has to say about this, for using the Bible, one can prove that man has been in existence for a little more than 6,000 years (6,036 years to be exact!) while science cannot prove that mankind has been in existence for as long as 42,000 years.

@djeggnog

29

What's the Watchtower's current stance on...

by FifthOfNovember in

the big bang?

-do they leave room for it as a possibility for jehovah to have created the universe?

(i heard an elder say once that the society doesn't necessarily rule out the big bang as a possiblity).

djeggnog

@Anony Mous:

The bible may say that a day could be a thousand years but then according to calculation, the day's or week's rest that God took is already over.

According to what "calculation" exactly? What "week's rest" do you mean? Or do you even know what you Jehovah's Witnesses teach?

It ended in 1975 according to the JW's....

What exactly are you saying "ended in 1975"? Please be specific.

If 1975 didn't match with the creationist days, something has to replace it.

What are these "creationist days" to which you refer? Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach and never have taught a thing about "creationist days, so I'd like to know what these "days" are, and what is is you meant here when you wrote that "if 1975 didn't match with the creationist days"

You can't take everything the Bible (or the JW) say literally or interpret it according to anyone's faith.

Wait! Hold on! While Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe and have never taught that everything that one reads in the Bible must be understood to be literal, two questions: (1) What role do you believe faith has with Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of the Bible? and (2) what role do you believe faith has with anyone else's (other than Jehovah's Witnesses') interpretation of the Bible?

IF scientific PROOF and the Bible have to match up then the JW's are 'right' with their aeons of time per day of creation....

How do you know that Jehovah's Witnesses are "right" about anything? What makes you say that Jehovah's Witnesses are right if science and what the Bible says "match up"?

[I]t is PROVEN that the Universe and even the Earth and a lot of living tissue was alive more than 12,000 years ago regardless of whether you believe it's to be a 1000 years or not and regardless if you're an evolutionist or a creationist.

What is "proven" now? That the universe was alive? That the earth was alive? That living things have been on the earth for more than 12,000 years? I'm thinking now about dinosaurs which were obviously here for much longer than 12,000 years, so from where does this "12,000 years ago" number come? Are you saying that "12,000 years ago" is the view of an evolutionist, the view of a creationist, or what exactly were you saying here?

@djeggnog

50

How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

july 2011 awake (p.5) says: the ruler of this world.

the bible states: the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

(john 12:31; 1 john 5:19) that wicked one is satan the devil, a powerful spirit creature who is described as the ruler of the authority of the air.

djeggnog

@Terry:

I found your piece in Post 10716 to be written rather well, and despite the typos (for which yours truly is famous) provided an excellent recitation of history of the religion practiced by the Jews until it was built upon by Christianity. You didn't say this exactly, but I got your drift. What I found amazing about this history of religion you recounted is that no mention whatsoever was made of Islam, which in my reading of history, figured mightily into the history of religion as well, what with Abraham being a major patriarchical figure in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

While well-written, your Post 10716 is very dangerous to the minds of those that cannot discern when they are reading an agenda-driven piece, so with this quick response, I thought I should let every lurker that read your post here know that one clear way to determine when a post is "agenda-driven" is when it leads to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses and, by extension, Jehovah's Witnesses pursuing its worship of God using their own interpretation of the Bible. I don't really know what it is about Jehovah's Witnesses that brings out the ire in some folks, but some people seem to believe, and quite strongly, that Jehovah's Witnesses are using the Bible to force people to unite with them in their worship of God, that people are unitedly worshipping Jehovah because of being duped to do so through they manipulation of the scriptures in order to give people false hope.

You believe the Bible to be based on a "false premise," and I think it to be ok for you to believe this to be the case, @Terry, for I believe everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. But let me ask you this one question: Why is it that you feel the people that are becoming Jehovah's Witnesses are not entitled to have their own opinions? Why, for example, are you entitled to decide, based on your recounting of religious history, that something is wrong with the Bible and with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses believing that what thing the Bible teaches are true, but other people are not entitled to decide for themselves whether or not they believe something to be wrong with the Bible and with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses?

It's clear to me, @Terry, that you've given quite a bit of consideration to the things you believe and to the things that Jehovah's Witnesses believe (and/or to the things that you think we believe), and you are evidently comfortable with your beliefs, and you have decided that the teachings found in the Bible are based on a false premise and are not for you, but I, too, have given quite a bit of consideration to the things I believe and to the things that I've learned from Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm comfortable with my beliefs, but this seems to bother you for some reason.

Why does this seem to bother you, @Terry? Do you believe I would be happier were I to walk on the "dark side" with you by viewing the Bible as little more than excrement and putting my faith in your beliefs? What is your hope for the future? Is death all you see in your future? I'm not judging you here, but many people I know do not want to live their lives in a state of hopelessness, but they would rather live in hope for a better and brighter future just as they also live in hope of providing a better and brighter future for their own children than they themselves had growing up.

I am like these people, @Terry, believing in a spiritual Father that cares for us as we would care for our own children, and this belief is based upon the evidence that exists all around us, despite the "dark side" of life we all have to endure today, that demonstrates that our God is a loving Father. But what positive prospects for the future can you offer me? What are your prospects for the future, @Terry?

You may want me to follow you, but only a weak-minded person would actually be will to follow you to death, unless you happened to have been able to offer them a better hope than the hope I now have by my having learned, through reading and studying the Bible, what things my God, Jehovah, has promised He would do in the future were I to loyally serve Him and keep faith with the Christian principles taught by his son, the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are able to convince me that that for which you are hoping is a better hope than the hope to which the Bible speaks, then I will gladly follow you.

It seems that it wasn't until 1943 that they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Christ's presence before 1914.

In 1993/4 they realised they hadn't seen the "Sign" of Matthew 24:30 although for years they had claimed they had.

You quoted exactly what @The Finger stated in his post, so I suppose @The Finger is one of your disciples, but here's the thing: While Jehovah's Witnesses have wrongly interpreted certain Bible texts many times, and while they have not always gotten it right the first time, one of the things that distinguish them from other Christian denominations is the fact that they are willing to abandon beliefs when they come to realize that such beliefs are premised on wrong conclusions.

While other Christian denominations seem unwilling to adjust their theological viewpoints, even when they are presented with clear evidence demonstrating flaws in what are essentially the underpinnings of their theological beliefs, because Jehovah's Witnesses embrace Bible truth, we, unlike what other Christian denominations do, distinguish ourselves by championing Bible truth over what we may have thought at one time to have been Bible truth. IOW, Jehovah's Witnesses are honest enough to admit when we were wrong in the early-1900s, in the 1930s, in the 1960s, in the 1990s, and today, and you know what? Our God knows at all times who it is here on earth that is doing their best to do His will, even when He knows we've gotten something wrong.

@djeggnog

50

How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

july 2011 awake (p.5) says: the ruler of this world.

the bible states: the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

(john 12:31; 1 john 5:19) that wicked one is satan the devil, a powerful spirit creature who is described as the ruler of the authority of the air.

djeggnog

@yadda yadda 2:

It's good that we can agree that Satan and the governments of mankind are clearly ruling this world, not Jesus since 1914. I think the actual evidence of our own eyes unmistakably supports that.

Jesus has been ruling "in the midst of his enemies" since the year 1914, even though you may not be able to discern this fact, and are evidently of the belief that if you cannot see Jesus actually ruling, then this would be unmistakable evidence that he has not been ruling since 1914, which is not what I have said here at all. Frankly, based on this "standard," I would find it hard to believe that you can discern the fact that Satan has been ruling since the rebellion in Eden, let alone since the year 1914.

Now let me get this straight: you are saying that when Jesus became King in 1914 he has ONLY been reigning over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel, and over those who have chosen to live under his rulership who you identify as the 'other sheep'. I believe that's your position, right?

What you say here is pretty close to what I would say: I would say that Jesus has been ruling over spiritual Israel since the year 33 AD, and has continued to do so since the end of the "appointed times" were fulfilled in the year 1914.

Could you kindly support that with scriptures and quotes from the Watchtower Society publications, because I noticed that you failed to do that in your earlier post.

Now why on earth would I do something for you that you could do for yourself? You could visit any one of the local Kingdom Halls near you and tell one of elders associated with that Kingdom Hall to provide such to you, letting him know that you were once one of Jehovah's Witnesses. For all I know, you may be one of those folks that do not respect the Bible and tend to read it whenever you do read it with a view to finding alternative explanations to those provided by Jehovah's Witnesses that make sense to you, and our publications aren't even infallible! Much of the information contained in our publications is dynamic in nature, so that some of what is in them is now outdated and requires supplemental explanations that is available now, but weren't available when they were written.

I really have no interest in providing any quotes here from Watchtower publications regarding the 144,000 or the "other sheep" for your benefit, but I'm willing to post here, as an example, quotations from other threads to which I've posted regarding the generation of the sign that began in 1914, which topic had been discussed at length here in various threads started last year here on JWN while a few of the "Remain Close to Jehovah!" District Conventions were still being held in various cities. I would rather talk to you about the Bible using the Bible, and nothing more than this, since whatever you would find in our publications are things that I am qualified to discuss with you since in missionary work often all that a missionary has in their possession is their Bible and not even one stitch of our Bible-based literature.

There have been some interesting topics raised on JWN based on one or more Watchtower articles on which I've commented, and in a different thread, I quoted a "Question From Readers" article that appeared in the September 1, 1952 issue of the Watchtower, which I'd like to bring to your attention since based on the question you asked in this thread, it seems to me that you might appreciate a snippet from what things I posted in this other thread regarding what Jesus stated at Matthew 24:34:

[T]he Bible ... gives no number of years for a generation.... [I]n the texts mentioning the generation [Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32]..., we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster’s does in its 33-year approximation; but rather... "the average lifetime of man." Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping....

[W]e could not calculate from such a figure the date of Armageddon, for the texts here under discussion do not say God’s battle comes right at the end of this generation, but before its end. To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation.

However, Jehovah's Witnesses subsequently came to understand from an article that appeared about 60 years later in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower (page 10) that it cannot be stated for a certainty that what Jesus meant at Matthew 24:34 regarding the "generation" that would "not pass away" before all of the things he indicated had occurred during the conclusion of this system of things referred to his anointed followers that were alive in 1914, which is what we had previously speculated Jesus meant, but that Jesus may well have been referring to the generation of the sign in which the lives of some of his anointed followers that were alive in 1914 during the generation of the sign might well overlap the lives of some of his anointed followers that would see the end of this system of things:

"[W]e do well to keep in mind several things about the word "generation": It usually refers to people of varying ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period; it is not excessively long; and it has an end. (Ex. 1:6) How, then, are we to understand Jesus’ words about "this generation""? He evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation."

Not many Jehovah's Witnesses today are aware that we had speculated almost 60 years before this Watchtower article appeared in 2010 that Jesus may have been referring to his anointed followers as contemporaries of the sign, whose lives may overlap during the generation of the sign that began in 1914. With this understanding, there is no reason that anyone should be attempting to force two, three or even four generations into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is only one generation, the one that began in 1914 and ends with the great tribulation.

Just as Exodus 1:6 states in referring to the death of Joseph, it not only refers to all of Joseph's brothers, but this verse also refers to them by saying "and also all his brothers and all that generation," so based on how old Joseph was when he died -- which was 110 -- then Joseph's contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers," whose lives overlapped Joseph's, as well as Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died, whose lives also overlapped Joseph's, making them Joseph's contemporaries.

Thus, the generation of Joseph began with Joseph's birth in 1767 BC, but ended, not with the death of Joseph, but with the death of Joseph's contemporaries, including Levi, for example, who died some 22 years after Joseph at age 137 (Exodus 6:16) and the death of Joseph's two sons, both of whom had been born in Egypt. Thus, the generation of Joseph would be at least 110 years + 22 years, or 132 years, plus the longest number of years beyond these 22 years that Manasseh or Ephraim, both of whom were Joseph's contemporaries that survived their father's death.

Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that became manifest (or "born") in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, which would include not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died, they being "all that generation" (Exodus 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign as all of them could bear witness to the composite sign that became manifest in 1914.

Start a new thread about this topic and maybe I'll join it, as it does relate to the sign of Jesus' presence when he indicated that he would be ruling "in the midst of his enemies." I really only joined this thread to answer your opening salvo: "How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?" which I feel I've done.

I'm curious to know because I have never seen a single statement published by the Watchtower Society that says what you are saying, ie, that the only subjects of Jesus rulership since he became king in 1914 are the anointed remnant and the other sheep. I can't find a single scripture to directly or indirectly support that.

Perhaps you should consider a Bible study.

Presumably that also applies to those of the 144,000 who were resurrected shortly after 1914? They also are only ruling as kings over the anointed remnant and the 'other sheep', but neither Jesus nor the 144,000 have been ruling over anything else since 1914, right? Would you mind also showing me some scriptures and quotes from the Watchtower Society that supports that. I'm struggling with that concept because my New World Translation at Revelation 20:4 and 6 says that those who receive the first resurrection and sit on thrones rule with Christ for a thousand years; but if the thousand year reign of the 144,000 and Jesus has not yet started, which is the WTBS's position, then who are the resurrected 144,000 presently ruling over? What have they been doing since 1918 or 1919 when they are supposed to have been resurrected to heaven?

Yes, I would mind.

And can you please explain how it is possible that these 'other sheep' are presently the subjects of God's reigning Kingdom since 1914, as you assert, since the Watchtower says that Matthew 25:34 is fulfilled in the future. How can the 'other sheep' be subjects of the kingdom government since 1914 and yet they have not 'inherited the kingdom' yet?

Of course, I could do that, but I will not do so. I feel I've given you enough already so that if you were truly interested in pursuing a discussion about these things, you will do what is necessary to obtain answers to these questions, rather than relying upon the information provided by anonymous people on a board like this one. In the event you haven't noticed, JWN is put up primarily for the entertainment pleasure of folks that do not necessarily believe the Bible to be God's word and whjo enjoy bashing Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course, not everyone that comes to JWN are here for these purposes, but you cannot have a serious Bible discussions here, for there is always someone (like @thetrueone, @cantleave or @OUTLAW) who will toss a post or two into any thread that reflects their contempt for God and for God-fearing people, usually off-topic commentary.

I'm also a little perplexed at your comment: "Jesus has been ruling over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel since 33 AD, which means that Jesus has continued to rule over them since 1914." Hmmm...so what you are saying is that Jesus was already ruling over the anointed remnant since 33 CE but in 1914 he began ruling over them. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Can you please explain, backed up by scriptures and Watchtower quotes, in what way Jesus began ruling over the anointed remnant in an especially different way in 1914 than how he has always ruled over them since 33 CE?

No, I believe I was quite clear in what things I have said here already, and I'm not really in the habit of quoting Watchtower publications since I am much more comfortable using my own words to explain Bible prophecy to folks anyway. Although it's true that many Jehovah's Witnesses are tied to specific publications and do not feel comfortable speaking without them, not all of us use Watchtower publications when teaching others unless we should be conducting a Bible study in one of them.

@djeggnog

50

How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

july 2011 awake (p.5) says: the ruler of this world.

the bible states: the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

(john 12:31; 1 john 5:19) that wicked one is satan the devil, a powerful spirit creature who is described as the ruler of the authority of the air.

djeggnog

This is a repost of my previous post, which contained a typo in it (shown in red type), now corrected in this repost.

If I were to tell you that you could catch a ride with me to a basketball game at Staples Center here in Los Angeles on the condition that you get to my house by 6:55 pm, since I intend to get to Staples Center and be in my box before tip-off, and you told me not to worry, that you'd be here "soon," whether you meant a minute before 6:55 pm, 15 minutes before 6:55 pm or whatever it was you meant by "soon" would be fine from a human standpoint as long as you got to my house by 6:55 pm. Now no one knows the "day and hour" (Matthew 24:36), but some of us know and believe that we are living in momentous times, the period that the Bible refers to as "the last days" and the "time of the end," and so whenever it is that the end comes, on the condition that all of the things that Jesus foretold must occur before the end comes, then it follows that from God's standpoint the end will be coming "soon."

@djeggnog

50

How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

july 2011 awake (p.5) says: the ruler of this world.

the bible states: the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

(john 12:31; 1 john 5:19) that wicked one is satan the devil, a powerful spirit creature who is described as the ruler of the authority of the air.

djeggnog

@cantleave:

Eggnog - you really believe that throughout the last 2000 years there have only been 144000 Christians?

I don't believe I suggested that between 33 AD and now there have only been 144,000 Christians. I would say that between 33 AD and 1931 there were what remained of the 144,000 anointed Christians here on earth that had a heavenly calling.

Of course the 144000 were sealed in 1935.

It was by the year 1935 when it came to be discerned that the sealing of those who had been sealed in their foreheads -- the 144,000 anointed Christians -- that there were not unsealed Christians, who had not ben called to an earthly hope, who did not have a heavenly calling, but who were associated with the "great multitude" (KJV) or "great crowd" (NWT) that John saw in his vision at Revelation 7:9, and that these were the same "other sheep" that had been identified back in 1931, who were being marked in their foreheads by the man with the secretary's inkhorn at Ezekiel 9:1-11.

Although I really hate posting messages to you, because, quite frankly, about a third of former Jehovah's Witnesses leave our ranks knowing none of the fundamental doctrines about the Christ, and think themselves able to fend for themselves spiritually when discussing the Bible with those of Jehovah's Witnesses that are students of God's word and no more than just the fundamentals, I do so for the sake of the lurkers whenever I feel something I say could benefit those reading these posts thinking that some objection raised by you or someone else that have left our ranks to be valid, when the fact is that hardly any objections raised here on JWN has any merit. It was for this reason that I responded to your post, @cantleave. You really ought to change your attitude and your study habits, otherwise you are going to keep getting things wrong (like confusing things that were discerned in 1931 with things that were discerned in 1935), and maybe consider returning to Jehovah before it becomes too late for you to do so.

@djeggnog wrote:

As you read this post today, @yadda yadda 2, this may be for you the very last appeal that Jehovah makes through me that you become reconciled to Him through Christ. I take what the Scriptures say quite seriously and I realize that you, for whatever reason, may not, which is your choice, but whatever your objections may be to the preaching campaign of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the world with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses taking the lead in providing an organized approach to how this work is being accomplished in the earth, the preaching of the good news is the touchstone by means of which the entire world of mankind will be judged, and so you need to know that whether it is in the year 2012, in the year 2016 or in the year 2025, God's will is going to soon be accomplished to Jehovah's satisfaction with or without your help, and then the end will come.

@Botzwana wrote:

And 2025 is NOT soon. If I said I was going to come over your house and that I would be there soon, would you be happy if I showed up 40 years late?

I recall reading somewhere in the Bible -- and maybe you do, too -- where it was mentioned how 1,000 years are as one day with Jehovah, so when I said "soon," I wasn't so much speaking from a human standpoint of reckoning time, but according to God's standpoint. Maybe you know, maybe you don't know, or maybe you know, but choose not to believe, but it was Jehovah God that gave us the sun, moon and stars, not just to provide visible evidence to us of His existence (which only the foolish among mankind deny), but in order "to make a division between the day and the night ... [that] they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years" (Genesis 1:14) so that among other things, we, His, human creation, could mark time.

If you were to tell you that you could catch a ride with me to a basketball game at Staples Center here in Los Angeles on the condition that you get to my house by 6:55 pm, since I intend to get to Staples Center and be in my box before tip-off, and you told me not to worry, that you'd be here "soon," whether you meant a minute before 6:55 pm, 15 minutes before 6:55 pm or whatever it was you meant by "soon" would be fine from a human standpoint as long as you got to my house by 6:55 pm. Now no one knows the "day and hour" (Matthew 24:36), but some of us know and believe that we are living in momentous times, the period that the Bible refers to as "the last days" and the "time of the end," and so whenever it is that the end comes, on the condition that all of the things that Jesus foretold must occur before the end comes, then it follows that from God's standpoint the end will be coming "soon."

@djeggnog

50

How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

july 2011 awake (p.5) says: the ruler of this world.

the bible states: the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

(john 12:31; 1 john 5:19) that wicked one is satan the devil, a powerful spirit creature who is described as the ruler of the authority of the air.

djeggnog

@yadda yadda 2:

Djeggnog and SuperSpook, thank you for your attempts but you have not answered my simple question: what exactly has Jesus been ruling over since 1914?

I admit seeing your question --

Can a JW apologist please explain to me with scriptural support exactly what Jesus has been ruling over since 1914?

-- but I intentionally ignored this portion of your post since you were seeking, or so I thought at the time, "a JW apologist" to provide an explanation as to that over which Jesus has been ruling since 1914. You see, contrary to what you and others here might believe, I am not a JW apologist and you shot yourself in the proverbial foot by loading your question by restricting responses to "JW apologists."

Now I don't care that you like to cast active Jehovah's Witnesses as "JW apologists," but I resent your making it appear that if I happen to have a different point of view regarding than you regarding what things the Bible teaches on this topic or on any topic that you might name, that because my beliefs resonate with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, then I am someone one that is positing ridiculous arguments just to justify the policies adhered to and followed by Jehovah's Witnesses, like the Civil War apologists that posit ridiculous arguments just to justify their viewpoint as to the virtue and morality of the Confederate States' desire to preserve their right to own slaves.

If you were able -- and I don't think many of the folks here on JWN are -- to listen to my arguments carefully, I believe you would realize that they aren't ridiculous ones at all, but are quite sound were you able to consider them objectively, which you may not be able to do. If you must view me as "a JW apologist," then this will like retard our discussion here and other discussions. Your choice.

Ousting Satan and writs of execution and judicial eviction etc is not the same as rulership! Can you see the difference?

No, the analogy I provided is about rulership, "possession" so to speak of "the kingdom of the world." Maybe you cannot see the connection, but there it is.

Who exactly has Jesus been ruling over since 1914?

The anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel and the "other sheep," who are the ones wearing the white robes in serving Jehovah God day and night in His spiritual temple as kingdom proclaimers in obedience to Jesus' command to preach the good news about God's Kingdom, for it is based on the reaction of those hearing the message that Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats. The anointed ambassadors of the Kingdom and the "other sheep," who are envoys of it, are both united in worship of Jehovah God, and while 144,000 were chosen by God to become co-rulers with Christ in the Kingdom, the latter have themselves chosen to live under Christ's rulership and are thus exercising faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Ransomer and their King. Let me repeat this for emphasis: Those who today represent the "other sheep" that did not come to exist until we came to realize after 1931 that those who were exercising faith in Jesus without a heavenly calling have chosen Jesus' rulership over them and thus recognize Jesus as their king.

Who are the individual subjects of the Kingdom since 1914?

The individual subjects of God's Kingdom are the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel, and those who have chosen to live under Christ's rulership are themselves subjects of the Kingdom as well.

If Satan still has temporary rulership and Daniel 2:44 has not yet been fulfilled, then Satan and the governmental systems are still clearly ruling the planet, are they not?

Yes.

Revelation talks about a beast on a throne which gets its power from the dragon, Satan. This beast on its diabolical throne still holds total rulership over the world, correct?

Yes.

Is it the anointed remnant that Jesus began ruling over since 1914? No, he has been ruling over his anointed brothers in the "kingdom of the son of his love" since Pentecost 33 CE, correct?

My answer to this question is yes, that Jesus has been ruling over the anointed remnant of the spiritual Israel since 33 AD, which means that Jesus has continued to rule over them since 1914.

Is it the 'great crowd' or the organisation in general that he is ruling over since 1914? No, I see nothing in scripture or any of the Society's publications claiming this. Anyway, the 'great crowd' does not form until the great tribulation we are told.

Technically, you're absolutely right, that the Lord Jesus Christ isn't ruling over "the great crowd," for no "great crowd" emerges until the great tribulation occurs, and none of our publications have ever suggesting otherwise (which makes me wonder why it is you are even asking this question), but, as I say above, the Lord Jesus Christ does, in fact, rule over those of the "other sheep" that exercise faith in him as their Ransomer and King.

But here's the point I would make here, @yadda yadda 2: If one doesn't have appreciation for the Scriptures, for what they say and mean, then even though I am here able to agree with some of things that you have said here regarding what the books of Daniel and Revelation state, and what many other scriptures, that I decided not to quote in my responses, state, I don't believe none of this matters in the grand scheme of things since the Bible wasn't written for everyone, just as Jesus' ransom sacrifice is not going to be appreciated by everyone now living for whom he died.

As you read this post today, @yadda yadda 2, this may be for you the very last appeal that Jehovah makes through me that you become reconciled to Him through Christ. I take what the Scriptures say quite seriously and I realize that you, for whatever reason, may not, which is your choice, but whatever your objections may be to the preaching campaign of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout the world with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses taking the lead in providing an organized approach to how this work is being accomplished in the earth, the preaching of the good news is the touchstone by means of which the entire world of mankind will be judged, and so you need to know that whether it is in the year 2012, in the year 2016 or in the year 2025, God's will is going to soon be accomplished to Jehovah's satisfaction with or without your help, and then the end will come.

@djeggnog

50

How could Jesus be ruling the world since 1914 yet Satan is the ruler of the world?

by yadda yadda 2 in

jw
friends

july 2011 awake (p.5) says: the ruler of this world.

the bible states: the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.

(john 12:31; 1 john 5:19) that wicked one is satan the devil, a powerful spirit creature who is described as the ruler of the authority of the air.

djeggnog

@yadda yadda 2:

How can it be that Satan is the ruler of this world and "the whole world" is in his power, and yet in 1914 "The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." (Rev 11:15). It is the Watchtower Society's official teaching that Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in 1914.

The permission God has given to Satan to exercise rulership over earth's inhabitants expired in 1914 AD. Yes, Satan had been the ruler over the kingdom of the world since Adam and his wife's eviction from Eden, but in 607 BC Satan was served with what would be equivalent to a lawsuit for possession of a foreclosed home in which he has "occupancy" as ruler of the world. Until 1914, Satan has the legal right to live in that "house" for Jehovah had decreed that that house would belong to no one "until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:27) The year 607 BC was when "the appointed times of the nations" began. (Luke 21:24; Daniel 4:25)

When 1914 arrived, however, Jehovah God issued to Jesus a writ of execution against Satan's occupancy so that "the kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ." (Revelation 11:15) You may have heard is said that "occupancy is 9/10 of the law, and the application of this axiom means that Satan was judicially evicted in 1914 from his occupancy as ruler of the world, for when Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down from heaven, this was equivalent to his getting a five-day "Notice to Vacate" here in California, which has been the cause of 'great anger to Satan, for he knows that he only has a short period a time' before he is finally evicted from occupancy. (Revelation 12:7-9, 12) The year 1914 AD was when "the appointed times of the nations" were fulfilled.

Now where this analogy falls apart is whereas when a judge issue a writ for occupancy, the sheriff then becomes an agent of the court to execute the writ against the unlawful occupant, and the sheriff is not also the litigant to whom the writ was given, but Jesus is not only the litigant, but he will soon act as "the sheriff" to evict Satan from occupancy as ruler of the world.

Is the world ruled by Satan or Jesus? Does Jesus have world power or Satan?

Just as the unlawful occupant of a foreclosed home is still in possession of keys that permit him to enter the premises where he lives, Satan is still in possession of "keys" that permit him the freedom to act as ruler of the earth, even though Jesus, since 1914, has a writ of possession signed by Jehovah, who adjudged Jesus as owner of the premises, that is to say, 'the kingdom of the world did at that time become the kingdom of both Jehovah and Jesus Christ' at this time, so you might say that while Jesus does have the writ of possession, Satan still lives in the house as the unlawful occupant and so he continues to exercise authority over the "kingdom of the world" since he has never surrendered, nor has he any intention of surrendering, the keys to the house in which he lives. Satan is not leaving voluntarily, and he will only be giving up his occupancy of the house that is no longer his to live in when the sheriff comes to evict him from the premises and not before.

@djeggnog