Posts by Justin

12

witchcraft and the movies

by jiutman in

jw
friends

just wondered if anyone can give me a suggestion.

i have a very good friend who is a jw.

we were having a discussion the other day and i told him i recently sa the movies harry potter and the lord of the ring.

I don't know if the WT has specifically commented on Harry Potter or not. I have read reviews published by church-organizations very similar to the JWs, and they are against Harry to one degree or another. All conservative Christians are against witchcraft (not to offend any Wiccans that might be reading this).

I personally have seen the movie, as I feel it is necessary sometimes to expose oneself to the surrounding culture, and certainly Harry seems like he is going to be familiar to generations of children just as Micky Mouse was familiar to us. So, we'd better find out where the culture is going whether we approve of it or not.

But to answer your question as to how JWs can engage in such double think, my experience was that they will abide by the pronouncements of the organization but then do what they please in areas that have not been specifically ruled upon by the WT. It think it is because they are forced to lead such restricted lives to begin with that they may indulge themselves whenever they find a gray area that the Society has not ruled upon. It's as if they need rules for everything and really have no conscience of their own.

Instead of acquiring the "mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16), they acquire the mind of the organization.

Justin

1

Mr. Biggidy & Mr. Bo

by Justin in

jw
friends

"hey, mr. biggidy," said mr. bo,.

don't let jehovah's witnesses bother you so.. if you say 'no,' away they'll go.".

"some will, some won't,.

Justin

"Hey, Mr. Biggidy," said Mr. Bo,
don't let Jehovah's Witnesses bother you so.
If you say 'No,' away they'll go."

"Some will, some won't,
not the zealous kind,
with them I have to give
a piece of my mind."

"Then get yer facts on the internet,
and they'll get to runnin', you bet!"

13

Spoke with a dub on ever changing doctrine...

by stocwach in

i asked him how could it be the true religion with all the numerous doctrinal changes.

this is how he replied to me in an email:.

" another thing mentioned was the apostles (known as the governing body).

Justin

You have included so much material in your question(s) that everything can't be answered at once. (Not even the JWs could keep up with you!) So try to be patient and ask one question at a time.

The gist seems to be that they can produce some scriptural evidence that there can be doctrinal change. In this case, primarily the Jerusalem Council that decided the circumcision issue.

Now to come to the point: The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) were written at a time when new features of God's plan were opening up. The Messiah had come for the first time, and there was a work to be performed in spreading God's message to the whole world (no longer to just the one nation of Israel). But when Jesus was here in the flesh, he confined his work to the Jews. His apostles were all Jewish. After his resurrection, they were expecting him to return specifically to establish a kingdom over Israel. (Acts 1:6) It wasn't until they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that they began to get a clearer picture.

As Gentiles began coming into the Christian congregation the issue of circumcision arose. If these Gentiles were compelled to be circumcised, it would mean that they, in effect, would need to become Jews before becoming Christians. So at the Jerusalem council the apostles composed a letter, and sent it to the congregations, saying: "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things," and the necessary things did not include circumcision. (Acts 15:28) The apostles could make decisions under the inspiration of that same Spirit which was given them at Pentecost. Then the matter was settled. They did not later reverse their decision and impose circumcision on the Gentiles.

What about the Governing Body of JWs today? They have never claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit as the Bible writers were. All they do is supposedly study the Bible and make their decisions, and yet they want these decisions to be binding on everyone in the organization. They make certain decisions, then years later change their minds and return to their previous understanding. Yet the people who are affected by these decisions have suffered hardships because of them. They may tell married couples what they can do in bed, perhaps resulting in the breakup of marriages, then later change their minds. For years they wanted young men who were subject to a military draft to refuse to even perform alternative serve, so the men had to go to prison. Now it's supposed to be OK to do alternative service. Certain operations were forbidden, so people had to die or be permanently impaired. Now those operations are OK. If they ever change their minds on blood transfusions, look at all the lives that will have needlessly been lost. The apostles, on the other hand, made it easier for male Gentiles (allowing them to avoid a painful operation) - not harder.

The Governing Body cannot compare the changes they make today with the changes that were made in the first century. The changes of the first century were necessary for the establishment of Christianity as a universal religion. But the changes that are made by the WT today either result in the abuse of Jehovah's Witnesses, or else are used to deceive them into thinking they are in a progressive organization (like when they change a few words - such as going from "new world" to "new order" and back to "new world" again - those are cosmetic changes that have no relevance at all).

You should pay attention to the kinds of changes they make by reading books on Witness history and looking at the reports that people make on this website. The WT's changes are not God's changes or the Bible's changes.

Justin

3

The Great Pyramid

by Justin in

jw
friends

some of you responded to my recent post about the bible students, who have more of a continuity with the teachings of c.t.

russell than jws do, by referring to russell's interest in the great pyramid of gizeh.. russell was following the lead of professor c. piazzi smyth, the astronomer-royal of scotland, who held to the belief that the pyramid was beyond the engineering ability of the ancient egyptians to construct.

some still take this view in regard to ancient engineering marvels.

Justin

Some of you responded to my recent post about the Bible Students, who have more of a continuity with the teachings of C.T. Russell than JWs do, by referring to Russell's interest in the Great Pyramid of Gizeh.

Russell was following the lead of Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, the Astronomer-Royal of Scotland, who held to the belief that the Pyramid was beyond the engineering ability of the ancient Egyptians to construct. Some still take this view in regard to ancient engineering marvels. Instead of attributing the Pyramid's construction to "ancient astronauts," Piazzi Smyth held that it was constructed by one of the biblical patriarchs under divine guidance. It was left to Russell to find his "divine plan of the ages" outlined in the architecture.

An interesting article on the history of "pyramidology" and Russell's contributions is found at http://www.greatdreams.com/pyramid.htm. I personally do not think a Christian theologian should use an ancient pyramid as a source for his theology (even if it is a secondary source). What is amazing, though, after all the energy that went into this pyramid study, is the way Rutherford simply dismissed it as being built under Satan's direction. The WT is still dismissing "old light" for "new truth" as easily today. Sometimes they give a detailed explanation for their changes, and sometimes not.

For those who would like to read some of Russell's writings, and compare them with the WT today, they are still available at the Bible Student sites. For some people, this may be the only lifeline they have to get out of the Borg.

(By the way, the pyramids found in Russell's "chart of the ages" were not directly related to the Great Pyramid. Russell simply used pyramids to illustrate what was perfect [such as Adam and Jesus], and topless pyramids to illustrate the imperfect [such as fallen mankind].)

When Russell died, the Society erected a pyramid near his grave. (Search the web for famous grave sites and find a picture.) The only thing that surprises me is, when they returned on the third day they didn't find the grave empty and the pyramid rolled away. Now that would have been something!

8

Sorry but U can't be baptized!

by plmkrzy in

if anyone is interested, i have a question about baptism.. i know that in the bible jesus told his disciples to go and gather up all people .

who were willing to listen and make disciples of them baptizing them etc..etc..etc... so basically there would be a kinda pyramid effect taking place from that moment.

in time and on until the end of this system of things.

Justin

plmkrzy,

I would like to attempt to tie together some of the bits of information you have already received on baptism. I'm not trying to tell you what to believe, or what you should do about the situation.

Historically, there are two Christian views on baptism. One is the sacramental view, and willy-think did a very good job of quoting from the early Church Fathers to expound this view. It really is the older view. It is the belief that the gift of the Holy Spirit, given through baptism, imparts to one God's grace (which is here conceived as an actual power). Of course, if the Spirit is transmitted in such a physical way, then this must occur within a succession of persons who are authorized to perform the baptismal rite. This view of baptism as a sacrament is maintained by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, as they claim to have a succession going all the way back to the apostles who were authorized by Christ to perform baptisms.

The second historical view comes to us through the Protestant Reformation. Protestantism claims that our relationship to God through Jesus Christ is initiated through our faith in Jesus, not through any physical action performed upon us by a priest or minister. This creates a need for another explanation for baptism, and it is this: That baptism, being a picture of death and resurrection (if performed by immersion), merely symbolizes something that has already occurred in the life of the believer.

Where does the Watchtower Society fit into this picture? The fact is that Charles Russell inherited his understanding of baptism from Protestantism, so that JWs still claim that it is a symbol of dedication. Russell thought that he was engaged in "harvest work" - that people in the churches who were already anointed Christians were being called out of "Babylon" to associate with the Bible Students. If these people were already "consecrated" or dedicated to God, their baptisms were valid and there was no need for them to be rebaptized. Fred Franz came into the movement at the time when this understanding was still current, and as badwillie has told us, was not rebaptized.

After Russell's death, Rutherford began emphasizing that JW's were exclusively "God's organization." They were no longer a movement or a loose association, but a concrete organization that competed with the churches. But even Rutherford, toward the close of his life, wrote a book entitled "Children" in which he tells the fictional story of a young couple who learn "the truth" and are baptized by one of their non-JW fathers! So it remained for the Knorr-Franz team to set a policy of not accepting outside baptisms (and when this occurred I don't know, maybe someone else does). The Society has never explained just when outside baptisms became invalid, but if they had to give an explanation I wouln't be surprised if they said the cutoff date was 1919, because that's when they think that Babylon the Great fell.

By refusing to accept non-JW baptisms today, the WT is in effect making baptism a sacrament (that is, the view that the Spirit is only conveyed through a certain physical channel) even though it claims to hold a symbolic view of baptism. If baptism is merely a symbol, it does not matter who performs it as long as the one being baptized has undergone a change of heart. Furthermore, the Society has no authority to perform sacramental baptisms because it cannot trace its succession back to the apostles. To have sacramental baptism, we need more than just a few "wheat" scattered among the "weeds" for the past 1,900 years!

I hope this explains how the WT got into the ridiculous position it is in.

Justin

23

have you turned a jw into an EX-jw?

by malian in

is the anyone, anyone, out there who has managed to turn a jw into an ex-jw?

i know there are lots of people who wanna know what it is that you did that worked--any (and every) suggestion is helpful!!!

i'll try anything at this point!!!

Justin

Malian,

I have read that once someone becomes too involved with JWs they must go through the process of being burned out by the organization itself before they can be recovered. This may take years.

The information that people like us (XJWs) and others provide is helpful, but it is only helpful at the right time. The right time is when a person is first investigating JWs but has not yet made a committment, or else after they are already inside the movement and get burned. Then someone can get a foot in the door.

Family and friends should never "disown" anyone who is involved in a cult. It is possible that even after years of involvement they may get their eyes opened and get free.

Justin

4

30 Years a Watchtower Slave - DIM's thoughts

by DIM in

jw
friends

on the back cover of the january, 2002 edition of this book appears this brief description:.

william j. schnell was a young man eager to serve god.

to him, the watchtower society appeared harmless, even valuable as a way to develop his faith and pass it on to others.

Justin

DIM,

I read Schnell's book years ago when I first left the WT. I don't remember the details, but your description and assessment of the book do seem appropriate. I think that Schnell was a very bitter man as most of us are bitter when we leave, and his book was a pioneer in the field of "exposing" JWs. That's unfortunate. We have much better material today, both to help people exit the organization and in acquainting the public with the facts.

Justin

9

Bible Students

by Justin in

jw
friends

as is well known, not all bible students remained with the wt in the years following pastor russell's death, and so today there are a number of groups that still identify themselves as bible students and have more or less retained russell's original teachings.. my question, for anyone who may have knowledge of this matter, is: what do the present day bible students believe about the availability of the high calling (heavenly calling) for people who newly associate with them and who make a consecration/dedication to do god's will?

in view of the supposed lateness of the hour, do they have anything similar to the "other sheep" class in the jws?.

please don't respond by telling me what the orthodox view is (that there aren't two classes to begin with) - we all know that.

Justin

As is well known, not all Bible Students remained with the WT in the years following Pastor Russell's death, and so today there are a number of groups that still identify themselves as Bible Students and have more or less retained Russell's original teachings.

My question, for anyone who may have knowledge of this matter, is: What do the present day Bible Students believe about the availability of the high calling (heavenly calling) for people who newly associate with them and who make a consecration/dedication to do God's will? In view of the supposed lateness of the hour, do they have anything similar to the "other sheep" class in the JWs?

Please don't respond by telling me what the orthodox view is (that there aren't two classes to begin with) - we all know that. I'm asking specifically what the Bible Students believe, and I also realize they may have different schools of thought as they don't have a centralized organization like the JWs.

8

feet of iron and clay

by edward gentry in

need a take from you intensive research boys (and girls).

on daniel 2 verse 43 wherin it says:.

"whereas thou sawest iron mixed with mirey clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men,but they shall not cleave one to another".

Justin

There are several options for an understanding of Daniel 2:43, "they will mingle with the seed of men." Of course, this refers to the great image which King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon saw in a dream, and which Daniel interpreted to him. It represented a succession of world powers, the final one (legs of iron), since the days of the Church Fathers, being understood as Rome, and the ten toes would represent an outgrowth of the Roman power. Whereas the legs were of pure iron, the mingling in the dream is portrayed as a mixture of iron and clay in the feet.

Dummelow's Commentary (p. 534), taking a critical view that the fourth kingdom is Greek and the toes are the breakup of Alexander's kingdom, nevertheless states that "There were elements both of strength and weakness in the rival kingdoms of the Seleucidae and Ptolemies," and that the mingling with the seed of men refers "to the royal marriages by which these kingdoms sought to establish alliance." So the mingling implies a weakness in the final phase of the world power structure.

But if we take the traditional view that the fourth kingdom is the Roman empire, and the ten toes are the breakup of that empire, we note that Macchiavelli, the Roman historian, described the empire as being divided among ten Gothic tribes, including the Lombards, Franks and Anglo-Saxons. C.T. Russell understood the toes to represent the nations of Europe, and he wrote in The Divine Plan of the Ages (pages 253-54): "In fact, the Roman Empire still continues, as represented in the nations of Europe. This division is represented in the ten toes of the image. The clay element blended with the iron in the feet represents the mixture of church and state." Followers of Herbert W. Armstrong, as well as dispensational fundamentalists, see the prophecy being fulfilled today in the emergence of the European Union. While the nations of Europe seem to be coming together to form a new superpower, they still have their differences which cause division.

When I was a JW (over 20 years ago), the WT understanding at the time seemed to be that the ten toes are all the earthly nations. Whether that has changed or not, I don't know. But it could be said that, in the form of the United Nations, they are coming together and are yet at the same time divided.

Regardless of which interpretation we accept (or if we accept any of them), the important climax of Daniel's prophecy is when the stone (God's kingdom) strikes the feet of the image and itself becomes a great mountain to fill the whole earth. Those of us who were JWs may no longer be Armageddon crazy, but we can hope that somehow, in some way, God's reign of peace will usher in the promised new age.

New Light Coming re "Faithful Slave"

by Justin in

it appears that the wt may be getting ready to change its understanding about who compose the "faithful and discreet slave".. in the recent talk given by ciro aulicino, two scripture texts were applied to the "other sheep" which used to be applied exclusively to the anointed - isa.

61:1 about the anointing with the spirit, and rom.

8:33 about the justified condition of god's elect.

Justin

It appears that the WT may be getting ready to change its understanding about who compose the "faithful and discreet slave".

In the recent talk given by Ciro Aulicino, two scripture texts were applied to the "other sheep" which used to be applied exclusively to the anointed - Isa. 61:1 about the anointing with the spirit, and Rom. 8:33 about the justified condition of God's elect. Also, the Watchtower of 7/15/01, pages 15-20, contains an article about persevering in the "harvest work" - but the "harvest work" was previously understood as applying only to the gathering of the anointed.

Changing the application of such scripture texts indicates that with the passing of the anointed class from the earthly scene, it is possible that the WT will claim that the "faithful servant" is not composed exclusively of anointed Christians. Exactly who will constitute the "slave" is yet to be seen.