Regarding them not being chosen as individuals: This statement must be taken in context to refer to the foreordination or predestination, which the WT has always understood to refer to a class rather than individuals. Of course, to belong to that class, one must be chosen personally. But this choosing during one's lifetime, in cooperation with one's own free will, is not confused with the predestination that took place before the foundation of the world.
Justin
JoinedPosts by Justin
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Latest WT statement on 144,000/great crowd
by stevieb1 inthis is taken from the june 15, 2002 wt p.5.
quote.
"paul explains that christ's spirit-anointed disciples have a special role in undiong the harm caused by adamic sin.
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JWs and Chastity Belts
by Stephanus inin this day and age, chastity devices tend to only be used by the bdsm community and it also seems to be a male kink, where a man's wife/mistress "locks him up" and only "lets him out" for her pleasure, blah, blah, blah.
however, the use of chastity belts for women still exists in many muslim countries and some strict parents in the west will lock up their daughters until they marry, in exchange for college tuition or other incentive (have you thought of this one, tr?
does it happen in the jw community?
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Justin
Dummy: "I think they ought to make people wear chastity belts instead of disfellowhsipping them, don't you?"
Smarty: "No."
Dummy: "Why not?"
Smarty: "Because some people like chastity belts. You don't think they should have what they like, do you?"
Dummy: "No. But aren't they kept under lock and key?"
Smarty: "Yes, but it's only a game. Then someone lets them out and they do bad things all over again."
Dummy: "Won't the chastity belts make them chaste?"
Smarty: "Chastity belts don't MAKE them chaste. You don't know what you're talking about."
Dummy: "Can you order chastity belts from the Society?"
Smarty: "No! Don't get them started on another issue. We've got enough to worry about without asking for another decision."
Dummy: "You mean its better that the FDS doesn't know about chastity belts?"
Smarty: "Oh, absolutely!"
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watchtower articles?
by monkey inhey i know that you cant get a subscription to the watchtower anymore so is there anyway to get it at all?
and some of the videos also if possible.
like is there a watchtower blackmarket??
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Justin
You can pick up the magazines they leave in laundromats! They also have book displays in shopping mauls now. I don't know if they try to follow up the interest, though.
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armageddon
by Realist inquick question: .
they say 1914 is the date when the end begins or something like that?
they also say that within the lifetime of that generation armageddon will come.
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Justin
1914 is still considered to be the end of the Gentile Times and the beginning of the last days. It seems that the date will continue to be used as a starting point for the time of the end, but will no longer be used to either calculate or approximate when the final end will come. The end will be "near" indefinitely.
This is similar to what the Adventists have done with Miller's date of 1844. William Miller was disappointed when Jesus did not return visibly in that year, but the Seventh Day Adventists claimed that it was the beginning of the "investigative judgment" and that the end has been "near" ever since. So it looks like 1914 will be the JW's 1844.
I believe we have an Adventist who posts here, and could fill us in on more details if so desired. But the point is, the JWs have a start date with no finish line in sight.
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A dilemma regarding the 144,000
by Five Gospels insome of the recent posts regarding the "anointed" got me thinking about some of the characters that i have met, or have known about, professing membership among this elite class of people.. one particular character i know of, even today espousing some, shall we say, interesting viewpoints on matters, had an even more interesting past.
it seems that some years ago (c. 1970's) a typically subdued but otherwise ordinary christian meeting was being closed with a prayer at a small kingdom hall in the north eastern usa when it was suddenly disrupted by this individual (even then professing to be anointed) assaulting his wife at the rear of the hall!
he was pretty much disfellowshiped on the spot for his indiscretion.
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Justin
Were you asking for a Watchtower quote regarding the FACT that they are taken back as anointed? There was a quote given in a previous post. Perhaps someone can refer you to that. I believe it uses the example of the man who was disfellowshipped from the Corinthian congregation and then taken back, and uses the argument that the only hope available at that time was the heavenly one, hence they have a Scriptural example of a reinstated anointed. But I don't think they gave their own explanation of what the person's standing would be before Jehovah while disfellowshipped.
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A dilemma regarding the 144,000
by Five Gospels insome of the recent posts regarding the "anointed" got me thinking about some of the characters that i have met, or have known about, professing membership among this elite class of people.. one particular character i know of, even today espousing some, shall we say, interesting viewpoints on matters, had an even more interesting past.
it seems that some years ago (c. 1970's) a typically subdued but otherwise ordinary christian meeting was being closed with a prayer at a small kingdom hall in the north eastern usa when it was suddenly disrupted by this individual (even then professing to be anointed) assaulting his wife at the rear of the hall!
he was pretty much disfellowshiped on the spot for his indiscretion.
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Justin
Five Gospels,
I no longer have access to the Watchtower publications. The teaching on being "declared righteous," or in the KJV English, "justified," is an old JW teaching specifically related to the anointed. I seem to remember an article published on this in the March 15, 1946 Watchtower (which I read years later), and there is probably an article in the Aid to Bible Understanding. I did recently read Chapter 3 of Russell's "The New Creation," which is Volume XI of the STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES and which I obtained from the Bible Students. Russell apparently believed that if an anointed one committed a serious offense and repented, they would be transferred to the secondary heavenly class - an option which is not available in the current understanding.
As far as an anointed retaining the justified condition even during disfellowshipment, this was my own opinion as I stated in my first post, and was the way I personally made sense of the WT's position that they could be received back as anointed. It's the only way I can make sense of it, the thought that one's final rejection must come from Jehovah rather than from a judificial committee of imperfect men.
Justin
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Anointed Ointment
by Valis inthere seems to be an irritating rash of anointment going around and i thought perhaps we could come up with a suitable salve.... question 1: on what basis do any of the so called anointed claim such a thing?
question 2: why on earth would it matter to us?.
question 3: how much egoism does it take to be "anointed"?.
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Justin
One point that must not be overlooked is that the non-anointed must always use a scissors in cutting out portions of the foundational document of Christianity - the New Testament or Christian Greek Scriptures - and say, "That does not apply to me." This can actually create emotional problems for a sensitive person who takes the Scriptures seriously and doesn't want to just parrot back what the Society says. So these people are not crazy for entertaining a heavenly hope. But for their own well-being, they should take the FDS concept (which in reality is only exercised by the Governing Body) with a grain of salt. They are not some "channel" that everyone else needs to listen to, and they should not assume this additional burden for themselves.
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Second Adventist
by Kenneson insome time back i came across this interesting headline in.
the jacksonville, florida times union, dated feb. 6, 1905:.
"second adventist.
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Justin
What is known as the Adventist Movement began with William Miller, who used the time prophecies of Daniel to predict that Christ would return visibly in 1844. When this did not occur, Miller became disillusioned and gave up the prophecy business. But people who had been influenced by him and continued to speculate were collectively known as "Adventists" - they believed that the Second Advent or Coming was near. They splintered into various groups, one of which became the Seventh Day Adventists who emphasized not only the return of Christ, but the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath.
While the Seventh Day Adventists set no more dates, other Adventists did. Among these were Nelson H. Barbour, who influenced C.T. Russell. Because of Russell's associations with such people, some historians consider Russell himself to have been an Adventist, but Russell insisted he never was and had merely associated with them. Nevertheless, the Bible Students/JWs are considered to be an Adventist offshoot.
Russell claimed that his early associates were "Second Adventists." I used to think that this was the name of a specific sect, but I recently read somewhere that it was just a generic term for Adventists in general. The old newspaper article which you found identifying one of the Society's speakers as a "Second Adventist" would seem to confirm that it was merely a generic designation, otherwise it would be totally inaccurate. But, I'm surprised it was still used to identify the speaker, as Russell himself did not want to be identified as a "Second Adventist" at all.
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Who says the bible is Gods word?
by sleepy inwho says the bible is gods word?i mean who in the bible?.
remember the bible is a whole host of books put together as one by different people than the writers.. did the actual writers cliam their books were inspired by god?.
i only know of pauls claim in timothy, but can he really speak for the rest of the bible writers when he claim "all scripture is inspired of god"?.
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Justin
This is a good question. The expression "word of God" could not be applied to the Bible as a whole until all the books that eventually made up the Bible were canonized and, in effect, placed within the same volume. By the time that the first letter to Timothy was written, there was an unofficial Jewish canon for the Hebrew Bible, and this is evidently what the writer (Paul?) had in mind, though even the Jewish canon wasn't formalized until the Council of Jamnia (90 CE). Notice, Paul did not say "this letter that I'm now writing is inspired of God," but rather whatever is considered Scripture is inspired of God. The Christian Church later canonized its own set of writings to be added to the Hebrew canon.
The theory of inspiration is such that even historical writings are considered to be inspired even if they don't come with a "Thus saith the Lord" like the utterance of a prophet would. The thought is that even the historical writers, while they seemed to use more personal initiative in gathering their sources and reporting, were still under the influence of God.
The problem that JWs and like-minded groups have, is that they consider the Bible to be the Word of God and yet it was put together and compiled (apart from the writing of the orginal documents) by persons and communities of which they do not approve. By refusing to acknowledge their indeptedness to such ones, they are acting as if the Bible simply fell out of the sky!
It's important to realize that Christianity has always regarded Jesus Christ - the Logos - to be the living Word of God. It is this Person who is the Revelation of God. The Bible, on the other hand, is sometimes called the WRITTEN Word of God. Although the writings of the Bible came to be regarded as Holy Scripture, exactly when and by whom it was first actually called "the Word of God" is a mystery to me. If I find out any more, I'll write another post.
Of course, there are those who will not agree that it is the Word of God, but I believe your question was of a historical nature and that is what I've tried to address.
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Question for Amazing
by Yadirf inamazing .
june 24, 2001 you stated:.
jws who come onto this forum and try to say that they are of the jw anointed class, and know they are such because they were zapped by some electrifying or sensational force, and that is how they know they are anointed, simply defy the position and teaching of their own organization.
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Justin
I think the story of Fred's not being baptized by the Bible Students has been spread by word of mouth. According to the "Proclaimers" book, he was baptized in 1913 - the same year he accepted the "truth." It seems unlikely to me that, after reading Russell's books and deciding he wanted to be a Bible Student, he would ask the Presbyterians to baptize him! Still, it was the understanding at that time that if one had been baptized by Christendom, after having made a dedication to do God's will (however imperfectly understood), that baptism was valid and did not have to be repeated.
If anyone knows anything further about Fred's baptism, please let us know.