Posts by ZeusRocks

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

So you think it is genetic then? we are born with it?

We are born amoral. We are neither moral nor immoral when we are born? A newborn baby has no sense whatsoever of personal responsibility. The whole world revolves around them. It's only as the brain develops do experiences start to shape that persons degree of empathy and sense of morality.

It sounds like you are under the assumption that there is absolute morality, which there is no such thing. Morality evolves as societies evolve and therefore the people that are being born into these societies will display different moral standards than say even 100 years ago. A classical example is the slavery of african americans. 100 or so years ago, most people in the southern states had no problem owning another person as property. Today, if anyone thought that that was moral, they would be put in their place quick smart because the moral standards of the majority of people in a particular society reflect what is generally acceptable.

I'll ask a simple question if that's okay. If I was on trial for a crime and the judge found me guilty and ruled that I am to receive the death penalty, but instead of carrying out the sentence on me, the judge picked someone out of the audience to die in my place and I was then free to live out the rest of my life, would that be morally upright thing to be done?

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

The question is what would someone 3000 years ago do or someone 10,000 years ago do.

No, that is not the question. The question is does our morality come from god, and the answer is no. Your moral code is not the judeo-christian moral code. If it was you would think slavery is acceptable as that is still enforce in the new testament. It would also mean thinking that everything god has done was moral and good as depicted in the bible. You would believe that genocide, killing children for disobedience and enforced marriage of a rape victim is moral. I doubt you would think any of those things are acceptable or would ever be, as that would make any person a monster.

No one, not even your parents can instill your personal moral code. They can explain to you what is right and what is wrong, but that doesn't mean you will follow it to a tee. In the end each of us decides for ourselves how we feel about a certain course of action we will follow.

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

I mean, doing soemthing like that goes against the basic functioning of a "survival instinct".

It's one thing to save a member of a family or tribe but a compelte stranger perhpas even of a competing tribe?

I'll put it this way. If you were walking through a park and saw a 12 year old being raped by a man brandishing a knife. No one else is around, you don't have your mobile phone on you. For a brief moment, you see this child crying, calling for help, you know that child is scared and in great pain, what do you think you would do. The situation is dangerous as the man has knife, you could very well be killed, but you also know that when the man is finished he could very well kill this child.

What would you do?

If you had a deep sense of empathy for this child, no amount of danger would stop you from doing what was in your power to help this child. If you didn't help this child and people found out about it, you would most likely be lynched as that kind of behaviour is unacceptable in a civilised society where we are suppose to try and look out for eachother, especially children who are younger and weaker. You still have surival instinct as you personally do not want to die, but your empathy for this child would recognised that this childs survival is in your hands.

Empathy plays a great part in our moral development. Without empathy we could live without moral restraint as we wouldn't care what effect our actions have on others. These kinds of people are usually referred to psychopaths or antisocial personality disorder.

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

Ok, fair enough points, so where did this notion of right and worng or of "fair play" as some call it, come from?

The simple answer is ourselves. Here I'm not talking about what we learn from others but what we learn by our own experiences and based on those we make a determination how our actions are going to impact others. Different variants in the early development stages can have a great impact on our sense of morality.

If you are interested a good place to start would be Lawrence Kohlberg stages of moral development. Here is a link to a basic overview of his studies.

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

definition of "what is right" had to be instilled there

Actually no it doesn't. Right and wrong is not instilled in any single person. It is learned through interaction as we develop things like empathy.

Humans are social beings, and thus our every action has consequences that affect not only ourselves but those around us. This is an observable fact and there for any thinking being to comprehend and evaluate.

From the time we are born there are certain things (like homan contact, not being left alone for long periods of time etc) that help us in the first couple of years as our brain develops which alot of the time determines the extent of our perception of what is good and bad as well as our level of empathy toward others. If you look at the classic example of children who were either lost or abandoned and raised by animals, they have no sense of morality in human terms. Their morality is learned from the animals through observation and interaction.

At what point in our evolutionary development did God install our morality, so that none of our closest animal relatives have it?

God did not instill our morality, because if he did, he gave a higher moral code than he has.

There are lots of animals that display morality within their social groups, just as we do. Whether people like or not, the fact is we are animals as well regardless of whether a god exists or not. Morality isn't some airy fairy notion, it is simply a standard of behaviour within a social context. Apes, dolphins, dogs etc are all social creatures and their survival, much like ours depends on standard of behaviour that would ensure their survival.

I want to be happy and avoid pain. Because we are the same species and our brains are pretty much wired the same, I would also assume others want to be happy and avoid and suffering. Bearing that in mind, even though I have my own goals in life and other peopl have theirs, it is hoped that we would want to pursue that life without causing any pain and suffering to others and vice versa, hence the reason we have laws in place to help weed out those that would want to intentionally cause disharmony.

33

Short Intro

by ZeusRocks in

i can only say i'm new here in the sense i've just been able to join.

i have actually followed this forum for over a year now.

i've tried joing several times but must have been doing something wrong, so i thought i'd try one more time and it finally worked.. i was a born-in jw.

ZeusRocks

No, it wasn't set up. My mum was a young mum and quite the looker. I was nearly 7 at the time and she was only 24. This was just a guy that had had a crush on her for years and being an elders son probably new mum wouldn't be believed.

To have someone raped for a divorce....I can't even comprehend the thinking behind that much less have it carried out. I have know quite a few sick and twisted JW's throughout the years though, but not to that extent I don't think.

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

If God is the source of my morality, then I have to wonder why this God is less moral than I am.

A person dying to save someone they don't know ( In the case of a man that drowns saving a stranger) is hardly a "natural thing", there is nothing positive for that persons "genes" to compel him to die for no (benefitial) reason, is there? Perhaps that is where God comes in?

On the contrary, it is a most natural thing to see someone needing help and trying to help them in any way you can. The main reason people would die in this situation is that they underestimate the nature of the situation, or they overestimate their abilities. They don't set out in this situation to die, but to help the other person. The argument that was put above is complete nonsense. The fact that a human would even help out another human makes them morally superior to “God” as he just sits back and lets people suffer.

If god is the source of morality, then that morality is contained in the bible, as that is the only thing that teaches people that a judeo-christian god even exists. But the fact is, that even most christians do not get their morals from the bible. We as a society and for the most part individually have evolved to view genocide immoral, rape immoral, slavery immoral, stoning children for disrespecting their parents, and the list could go on,....but “God” doesn't view these things as immoral when it suits him. I don't think anyone could say that rape, genocide, slavery or stoning children would be acceptable for any reason.

Even Jesus Golden Rule isn't really an acceptable way to think. The more appropriate guideline would be to treat others how they would like to be treated as not everyone likes the same things you do.

If anyone lived by “God's” moral code would be judged a monster by today's standards.

8

Post some funny pics of certain individuals using the internet.

by asilentone in

.

ZeusRocks

6

Process of Disfellowshipping

by ZeusRocks in

i'm unsure if this has actually been discussed before, but i often wondered about the process of disfellowshipping.

i know a lot here have been affected by it for many different reasons.

i'm writing this from the perspective that some who read this believe in the bible as gods word and that jesus words and teachings are what they are trying to emulate.. the wts process is primarily to hold a judicial committee overseen by at least 3 elders in a closed room and the final decision is made by them.. matthew 18: 15-17.

ZeusRocks

Thaanks besty I'll take a look at that.

Hi BluesBrother, I do take your point on the other scriptures. But at the end of the day, Jesus is suppose to be head of the congregation, no one else. By using those other scriptures they are in effect saying that Paul's way of doing things is of more use than what Jesus said. The fact that the congregation in their eyes means a judicial committee means that they have deliberately changed the meaning of the word.

The word used in this instance is ekklésiaa) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
b) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

They can spin it any way they want, but at the end of the day they are changing the original meaning to suit their own ends. They have gone over Jesus head and used Paul as the final authority. But then again, the WTS really has little use for Jesus these days anyway since they have elevated themselves above him anyway.

73

Is God Necessary for Morality?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is god necessary for morality?.

below are videos of two debates on this topic.

each debate features dr. william lane craig, an american evangelical apologist, theologian and philosopher.

ZeusRocks

I would say that "God" is a hinderance to a persons development of morality.

In the Old Testament god commanded genocide (including elderly and babies). The laws given were completely immoral, slavery, rape victim marrying her rapist, all the unclean regulatory nonsense, the view of women as property etc.

Things only improved slightly in the New Testament, even though slavery was still endorsed. God of the old testament and god of the new testament are still the same.

If anyone says "oh the was the old testament", what they are really saying is because god said so, at one time it was completely moral to own and beat slaves to near death, rape then marry a woman, commit genocide. Were these things ever OK to do to other human beings? If a person answers "yes," then they have no moral compass. They are saying any action can be moral or immoral, all it takes is for god to say “do it” to make it “right.”

A moral person would want to stop a person from beating another near to death as "property." A moral person would want to stop a person from slaughtering babies out of pure vindictiveness.

Usually the Christian response is that god knows better, and when god tells people to do horrible things, there is a greater good at work. We're told we can’t recognize the larger plan, because we’re just humans, and not gods. But the problem there is: If you can’t tell a good action from an evil action, then how do you know it’s good if god says to go kill babies? It sounds evil—so what makes a person accept it’s good?