Posts by Essan

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

Essan

Djegnogg said:P.S.: I'm glad that you rethought your earlier decision, when he told me in a previous post: "I won't be responding to you further."

Sigh, no, I said that in a different thread - The "Other Sheep" thread by Titus - indicating that I wouldn't respond to you further in that thread, in the vain hope that you'd stop using my responses there as an excuse to waffle on for pages, yet saying nothing, and so continue to avoid answering the simple questions the OP asked.
In this thread, I've no problem speaking to you. Except that endless empty speeches are clearly your modus operandi no matter what the thread or topic is and I'm not sure I can bare to sit through another of your longwinded and contradictory 'responses'. Seriously, don't you bore even yourself?
Anyway, no, for now I haven't decided to 'disfellowship' you yet for your obvious apostasy from sound Scriptural teaching.
Here, I'm still talking to you.
You lucky thing, you! :)
BTW, I have to congratulate you, as having read a few posts by the likes of yourself, TheMadJW and Debator, I was beginning to think that you all must be satirizing the worst excesses of blind, unreasonable JW's in an attempt to open other JW's eyes to the idiocy and faulty reasoning of such Watchtower Loyalists. What an excellent idea, I thought! If I was still a JW and I came here and read the kind of bizarre and twisted logic that you people employ, the scales would instantly fall from my eyes and I'd
immediately exit the Org. as fast as my legs could carry me! I'm certain that's the effect you lot will be having. It's genius. Of course, if you're serious - as I'm beginning to suspect you must be - then on the one hand that's deeply tragic, for you, yet it is still the most wonderful wake up call, as you hold a 'mirror' up to the lunacy of the WT for all visiting JW's to see, and as they gaze into it they must wonder in amazement and shock 'Did I ever really believe that nonsense? Do I really sound like that too? What was I thinking!?

Y es, it's a powerful ministry you are performing.
And for that I thank and congratulate you.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

"I second that. Talk about getting owned. I have a strange feeling Debator(Reniaia) won't be popping back into this thread."

I wouldn't bet on that, Miseryloveselders. Unfortunately, Debator is a type of JW I once never even dreamed could exist, when I was a JW. I thought that it was an organization which prized honesty, truth and integrity above all else and drew only members who felt the same. When I discovered that the Society itself was a liar a hypocrite and a fraud, I imagined that, surely, the rank and file JWs themselves must all be honest people who love truth and they are just deceived by manipulative men!

If only that were true.

At the time I simply couldn't conceive of there actually being JWs who really didn't care about truth and had no integrity and whose only concern was to appear to be right and to defend - and even attempt to enforce on others - their knowing choice to uphold fraud and hypocrisy, regardless of how unscriptural and spiritually debased they discovered their religion to be or their own arguments had to become to defend it.

Now - to my great shock - I know better. Many JW's are deceived, true. But some JW's are committed, willful deceivers and I consider Debator to be such, at least for now. If this thread doesn't expose that to readers then nothing will. The facts - Scriptural and historical - could not be more crystal clear and damning. And Debator simply doesn't care. Such people will twist and lie and appear to have no conscience in doing it. So don't expect people like that to be affected by the undeniable truth and so stay away.

It's shameful. IMO.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Debator,

First of all, you have continually ignored and rejected the Society's own explicit definition of 'False Prophet' and are teaching something else, which you have made up - which makes you an apostate - so I'm not sure faithful JW's should be listening to your twisted satanic reasoning. The WTBTS definition - which you reject because it doesn't suit you - is worth repeating again...and again...because it's just so accurate:

"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying." (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

So saith the Society, and in this case, they're quite right. This definition is Biblically justified and describes the WTBTS perfectly and so, out of their own mouths, they are unequivocally condemned as a serial 'False Prophet'.

Now, if you reject the Society's teachings on this matter as wrong why should anyone believe you when you insist their other teachings are correct?

Regardless, you do reject the Society in this, and make up your very own lies. You claimed that it was a " Bible fact " that for one to be identified as a false prophet they had to have specifically claimed "inspiration" when making their false predictions and false pronouncements in God's name. So, I questioned your supposed Biblical rule and challenged you to show that in all cases where "False Prophets" are mentioned in the Bible they are shown to have claimed "inspiration" from God, which you insist specifically MUST occur for them to be accounted as "False Prophets".

You haven't provided a single instance of this. Not one. Despite claiming it as a " Bible fact " and a set rule.

In fact, in nearly all cases where "False Prophets" are identified in the Bible they don't explicitly call themselves prophets (which makes a nonsense of the argument "But..but.. the Society never claimed to be a prophet" which actually, they did, explicitly) and, these biblical "False Prophets"generally don't specifically claim 'inspiration', which you said was crucial in Scripturally identifying them as a "False Prophet". If Biblical "False Prophets" didn't need to specifically claim the title 'Prophet' or claim 'inspiration' to be rightly identified as "False Prophets" then neither does the Society!

The Bible makes a liar of you.

So, to reiterate, these "False Prophet's" identified in the Bible almost never explicitly claimed to be "Prophets", and they almost never explicitly claimed "inspiration". By your reasoning then, the Bible accuses them falsely. But no, their ACTIONS and WORDS made clear that they were attempting to act as Prophets by making false predictions and false pronouncements while invoking God's name and authority - just as the WTBTS has done - and they implied inspiration by using other terms and phrases - other than "inspiration" but which amount to EXACTLY the same thing! - EXACTLY AS THE SOCIETY AND IT'S LEADERS HAVE DONE!

Now are you really going to make me paste example after example, from Russell's time onwards, of quotes where the Society has claimed inspiration as a Prophet, although not always in those words, just as "False Prophets" in the Bible did not use those words, yet were rightfully condemned as "False Prophets"?

You know I can. You know I will. So why don't you just save us all some time, drop your lies, drop your rejection of the Bible evidence and even the Society's teaching, hang up your sheep's covering and just admit to trying to deceive on this issue? If you continue with this dishonest line of un-reason, even the JW's still mesmerized by the WT will be begin to see through your ridiculous and desperate apologetics, as everyone else can.

That the WTBTS has since it's very beginning been a False Prophet, by any Scriptural, reasonable standard is a cast iron fact. Deal with it.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Metatron said: You can narrowly squeeze out a careful definition of "false prophets" but that doesn't change the 130 years of lies.

Actually they can't squeeze out if they abide by the Society's definition of a 'False Prophet' or the Bible verses identifying false prophets. There is no legitimate means of escape. Both the Bible and the Society's own words condemn them.

What a pickle - to save the Society you have to reject both the Society's own teachings on this matter, and those of the Bible.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive"

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

@ Metatron. You said:

It is this single fact that should render this gnat straining a silly exercise.

Agreed, but let's strain this gnat, because Debator has thoroughly checkmated him/herself here, so let's see it through to the finish and demand an answer. Debator insists - as a "Bible fact" that someone must directly and specifically claim 'inspiration' when making wrong pronouncements and false predictions before they can be rightly accounted as a "False Prophet". They can't use other words to indicate this, as the Society does, oh no, they have to specifically claim 'inspiration', and Debator says the Bible proves this. Well I can't wait to see the evidence. This is one gnat that really needs strained. If Debator doesn't return with this clear evidence of this "Bible fact", then I'm sure myself and others here can locate the instances in the Bible of Prophet's proving and being declared false, and presenting the evidence ourselves.

That we should even DEBATE such an issue should speak volumes about how fantasy driven and frighteningly sick this organization is. It's madness institutionalized.

Oh I totally agree, but sometimes it's necessary to insist someone hang from the noose they themselves made before they will be willing to come to their senses.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Debator, you rather rashly said said:

"I am not splitting hairs, unless they claim to be INSPIRED oF GOD they cannot be classed as false prophets that is a Bible fact"

That's complete nonsense. And you can split hairs all you like, it still won't do you any good. Can you show me the Bible verses to support your 'Bible fact' where:

1. false prophets are identified as such in the Bible (and they have also specifically declared themselves 'prophets', only to be proven false).

2. they specifically claim 'inspiration' from God. (they use the word 'inspiration', as you insist is vital)

And all false prophets in the Bible will have to be shown to do this consistently, because you are claiming a rule.

So, for your claim to be substantiated, all identified false prophets in the Bible will have to both directly claim to be 'Prophets' and directly claim 'inspiration' . If they don't do this in all cases, then, according to your rule, the Bible is wrong in identifying them - any of them - as 'False Prophets, or the like.

This should be interesting. I look forward to your response.

BTW, you are deviating from the Society's own teachings on what identifies and condemns as a false prophet, because it suits you. They have already condemned themselves out of their own mouth:

"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying." (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

309

Who really is Michael the Archangel?

by theMadJW in

jw
friends

http://www.themadjws.com/whoismichael.htm.

.

let me know what you think- for i will be adding to the info!.

Essan

The references to "independent thinking" are ludicrous- for we only advocate not trying to be indeperndant of Truth from God.

Er, that's not true, the references to independent thinking in the literature are generally with reference to not thinking differently to the Society.

But, yes, I know, you're a die-hard JW, so Society, God, same thing.

20

New light what is it...cos I'm confused??

by Fractured~Mind in

ok this is the biggest problem i have ...well one of...and that's the governing body's stance on "new light".

to me its like a dimmer light , whatever subject you have the light on, starting with the lowest setting you can make out the basics.

when the dial is turned up slowly to the brightest setting, you then have the whole, complete,picture...but you don't have a whole new subject matter in front of you.. so i can understand them starting with the basics then later on slowly revealing more and more as it is revealed to them...but i dont understand starting with one idea and completely changing that idea over and over again.. and if the light is not that bright on a subject, isnt it common sense to keep your big trap shut until your sure or the light is brighter, so you don't stumble millions of people in the process??.

Essan

Darth said: Don't look directly into the New Light...... it would be bad!

I looked Darth! I looked into the Light Darth!

98

Do you believe the "Conscious Class" will be saved? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)

by brotherdan in

there are thousands of people sill trapped in the organization that realize that it cannot be what it claims to be: god's only true organization.

but do you think that these ones that still believe in christ and his crucifixtion will still be saved?

after all, salvation does not come from an organization.

Essan

Slimboyfat said: "From the Bible. Paul was a tyrant as bad as any GB member for example, just as end-time alarmist, telling people they shouldn't marry, who they should talk to and associate with, telling them not to consider other philosophies and so on."

OK, I see what you are saying, but I still think a life lived according to an accurate Biblical perspective - even accounting for Paul - is waaaay freer than a JW one. This thread is in the context of Christians and people who believe in the Bible. So, for those people, they have to operate within that context. If they wish to do so, they are far better off as non-JW Christians than trying to do so while in the Org, IMO. Living as a 'true Christian' the way the Bible actually describes it is so alien to JW life and doctrine that one would have to keep it largely secret to avoid being DF'd. I think one would only make that choice in order to avoid being DF'd and losing family and friends.

98

Do you believe the "Conscious Class" will be saved? (CHRISTIANS ONLY)

by brotherdan in

there are thousands of people sill trapped in the organization that realize that it cannot be what it claims to be: god's only true organization.

but do you think that these ones that still believe in christ and his crucifixtion will still be saved?

after all, salvation does not come from an organization.

Essan

I think if anyone actually respects the Bible and has studied it without the Society blinkers, then it would be very hard for them to live as a 'true Christian' while associating with the Org. and that, ironic as it sounds to JW's, such "conscious" ones would be much freer to actually be a think and act like a true Christian among non-JW Christians. IMO, the only reason to stay, for such ones, is if they can't bear the price of leaving in terms of losing friends and family.

Otherwise, anyone "conscious" who wanted to be able to live in Christian freedom in the way Jesus and the NT writers actually recommended would be best advised high-tale it out of the Org.

Slimboyfat said: But some of the worst JW teaching come out of the Bible. What's the point of ditching JW beliefs but holding on to the Bible?

Ah, but do there really come from the Bible, or are 99% of them just strained interpretation, easily shown to be false when exposed to people who really know the Bible and aren't indoctrinated by the Org? I'd suggest it's the latter.