Sorry Themis, I don't have the CD. Last one I had was the 97 disk, I think. And I don't even have that one anymore. I've been 'out' for a few years now.
Posts by Essan
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20Staying "Loyal" and King David/Saul Question...
by Confucious inok.... had a good discussion with a jdub friend.
good friend.. and i gave the argument, "hey.., loyalty to god trumps loyalty to organization.".
basically, that when your concious disagrees with "god's organization" that you should stand up and say something.. then he gave me a good point about king david and how saul was the organization at the time but since it was god's appointed one - that david didn't work to "overthrow" saul.. thoughts?.
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20
Staying "Loyal" and King David/Saul Question...
by Confucious inok.... had a good discussion with a jdub friend.
good friend.. and i gave the argument, "hey.., loyalty to god trumps loyalty to organization.".
basically, that when your concious disagrees with "god's organization" that you should stand up and say something.. then he gave me a good point about king david and how saul was the organization at the time but since it was god's appointed one - that david didn't work to "overthrow" saul.. thoughts?.
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Essan
That's interesting Themis and Cameo-d.
Do the Society agree that Saul was no longer God's rep. at that time? While you may be right, if they disagree then this line of reasoning may not work with a JW. I know that David had been anointed but how do we know that meant Saul was not God's rep. then?
I do recall that David said with regard to Saul when he was in hiding from him: "Who can lay a hand on the LORD's anointed and be guiltless? As surely as the LORD lives," he said, "the LORD himself will strike him; either his time will come and he will die, or he will go into battle and perish. But the LORD forbid that I should lay a hand on the LORD's anointed." 1 Samuel 26:9-11.
So, I can see why a JW would reason that David still saw Saul as God's rep. Which is why it might be best, IMO, for the OP to point out to their JW friend that David left Saul and so we can leave the Org. if we to feel it has strayed from the right path. This line of reasoning doesn't involve the more difficult task of first challenging their doctrine and trying to prove either that Saul wasn't God's rep or that the Society isn't God's rep. They may both be true but may be harder for a JW to accept and I think we need to start slowly and gently with such questioning JW's.
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209
Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.
by Essan ini'm disgusted.
so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.
1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.
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Essan
That's your intuitive subconscious rendering it's judgement NVL.
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209
Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.
by Essan ini'm disgusted.
so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.
1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.
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Essan
Hi TD.
Thanks for the verification. I dearly wish I had been born a Bible Student rather than a JW. While I don't agree with either groups doctrine, the Bible Students are infinitely more tolerant of free thought and differences of opinion. I don't imagine being a Bible Student is the soul crushing, hellish cult experience that being raised a JW is.
Although I have noted that the Bible Students do suffer from the same tendency to rewrite history and deny earlier teachings of Russell as the JW's do, although perhaps not to the same extent. They seem to follow a version of Russell's writings and his teachings that was put together shortly after the disappointments of 1914 and which omits many references to his earlier predictions regarding that year. Which is to say that, as far as I have observed, the Bible Students are using the same post-1914 altered and edited versions of Russell pre-1914 writings as DJ is using.
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102
HELP REQUEST - Judicial Committee Hearing tonight!
by SweetBabyCheezits ini hate to ask you good folks to jump around but the first post in the thread below explains why i'm going into the jc meeting, hence the basis for my questions below.... http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/198636/1/reply-to-judicial-committee-question-thenoblelodge.
i have no idea how to present my witnesses.
they've already agreed to show up.
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Essan
"QUESTION:Why do the elders ask the person to get out of the room for 10 mins and then ask him to come in during a JC?
They discuss amongst themselves the course of action they are going to take, pray, get some scriptures ready to look up from the flock book, suck each other off....granted that last one might be made up."
NVL & Laverite, actually I suspect it's just the second one that is unlikely. :)
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209
Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.
by Essan ini'm disgusted.
so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.
1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.
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Essan
Hi TD. Thanks.
Yes, those details are essentially indicated in the quotes above if you review them. Russell did teach that the Christ's Millennial reign on earth would begin in 1914 and that the Gospel age fully ended in 1914. Any notion of an overlap of Ages doesn't really affect this and certainly doesn't change anything with regard to DJ's claims, which were that Russell predicted nothing for 1914 and that he in no sense predicted Christ's coming in any capacity in 1914, visible or invisible. DJ's original emphasis here was in refuting the idea that Russell ever made predictions, while ours was in proving that he certainly did make predictions - spectacular ones - and that most of them centered on 1914, including the "manifest but unseen" coming of the Kingdom and it's King to execute judgement and rulership on earth. I don't want this main point to get lost in the convoluted and ever-changing details of Russell's labyrinthine interpretive chronology which may not be directly relevant.
""There was a sense in which the Jewish Age ended at the cross and another sense in which it was extended 37 years. So, we believe, there is a sense in which the Gospel Age ended in 1878, and another sense in which it is extended 37 years, or until 1914 ." - Watchtower May 1880 "The Sign of His Presence" p 3."
And
"""The final overthrow of present governments... will be followed by seven years of socialism and anarchy, to end with 1914 by the establishment of Christ's Millennial government" - Watchtower Reprints August 15th 1892. p239.
"...the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, October 1914" - Watchtower Reprints July 1st 1899 p 172.
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209
Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.
by Essan ini'm disgusted.
so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.
1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.
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Essan
Thanks Peacedog. :)
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27
Only JW's will survive Armageddon...
by Bluegill inis there anything in print by the wtbs that actually says or strongly suggests only jw's will survive armageddon and live in the new system?
i know someone that has a hard time believing that god will destroy almost 6 billion people and doesn't recall ever being told that only jw's will survivie..
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Essan
Bluegill, this friend sounds ripe for the picking LOL.
I suggest showing them what JW's actually predicted about 1914 in Russell's time (Armageddon, Millennium to begin). Then with this false prediction and their other false teachings, show that they could not have "qualified" as Faithful Slave of Wise Virgins etc. in 1914-1919, so they can't be "God's Organization", then or now. Then they'll be ready to hear about all the other sins of the Society. Then they'll exit.
That JWfacts site we gave you a link to is a fantastic place to start.
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27
Only JW's will survive Armageddon...
by Bluegill inis there anything in print by the wtbs that actually says or strongly suggests only jw's will survive armageddon and live in the new system?
i know someone that has a hard time believing that god will destroy almost 6 billion people and doesn't recall ever being told that only jw's will survivie..
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Essan
No Parrot, you did say the Society were "assholes" so you didn't speak too soon at all. You were spot on :) (edited to add: you said 'cover their assholes', not that they were assholes, but now that I've said it, I'm not going to retract it - they're assholes LOL)
And they don't often say it explicitly, it's true. They like to keep the belief in the shadows.
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Only JW's will survive Armageddon...
by Bluegill inis there anything in print by the wtbs that actually says or strongly suggests only jw's will survive armageddon and live in the new system?
i know someone that has a hard time believing that god will destroy almost 6 billion people and doesn't recall ever being told that only jw's will survivie..
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Essan
- "Only Jehovah's Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the "great crowd," as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil." Watchtower 1989 Sep. 1 p.19
- "Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb. 15 p.12
- "During the final period of the 'ancient world' that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful 'preacher of righteousness.' (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah's people are making known God's righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?" Paragraph 8
- "But Jehovah's servants already belong to the only organization that will survive the end of this wicked system of things."Watchtower 2007 Dec. 15 p.14
- "But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy."Watchtower 1993 Sep. 15 p.22
- "Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God's use in his precious new order". Watchtower 1985 Mar. 1 p.14