Posts by zannahdoll

22

Do you like Sunsets? why?

by cyberjesus in

jw
friends

people like to stop and appreciate a sunset.... but what is it they enjoy?

what do you enjoy?

who say its beautiful?.

zannahdoll

One of my cousins, when she was 3 years old, was given a toy. It was a little cutesy looking dinosaur made for toddlers that you pull by a string. She screamed when she saw it.

scary toy dino

Similarly I bought a crawling mini-mouse toy for my god-daughter. She was nearly one-year-old. She cried and screamed. However other children love the mini-mouse on first sight.

Scary Mini

When my god-daughter turned 3 I gave her this game called Elefun for her birthday - it is a plastic baby elephant with a nose that spurts out butterflies and children try to catch the butterflies with little nets before they fall to the ground. My mother said it would be a great gift because she has seen a few children receive this and play with it right away: it is a hit. I get her the game at a party for her and again: she is a scardey cat and freaks. Other children her age and a little older love it and start to play. This didn't change her desire to play, even after seeing it was harmless and the children were laughing and enjoying it she continued to stay away.

Here is the scary Elefun

Thankfully she isn't scared of everything and she loved a furry rocking horse I gave her that she can ride and plays music when you press it's ear.

Similarly one of my girl friends has toddlers who will not eat anything but pizza, french fries, and a few other items... I'm sure (at least I hope) her boys grow in their tastes, however another girl friend of mine also has toddlers and her boys will eat anything. My cousin that I mentioned earlier said when she was 5 years old her favorite foods were salad and steak. Now some of this is because of what they are exposed to (nurture) and some tastes are inherited (nature) --- but even then... some of this doesn't make sense: especially when the differences are in siblings.

Twin studies are fascinating to me because they do tend to have similar tastes and lead similar lifestyles... maybe it is nothing more then nature and nurture... and on the other hand: why be scared of a cute toy dino? because it is green? or of a toy baby elephant in a soothing blue with little floating butterflies? Do those instincts come from our caveman ancestors? Was it fight of flight against small blue animals?

I may like to hear you sing if you have a good voice... for music there are songs or genres of music the more I listened the more I appreciated them... adversely there have been songs I have grown tired of if I hear them too much. I used to always have the radio on in my car. Sometimes, as of this last year or two, I find that I prefer to drive in silence.

If everyone likes something because everyone else likes it then how do the fads get started? If things are popular who made them popular? Why would the person who first enjoyed a song or fashion or art enjoy it? Why do people create and compose songs and paint pictures and tell stories? What makes some things take off and other flop?

21

oh, what to believe! (everyone welcome, atheists and agnostics especially)

by zannahdoll in

i was invited by a friend to view a thread that was 7 months old and i made my first posts in that thread but i think, being an old thread, i may miss out on talking to some of you.

so, for a fresh start: i'm going to repost a few thoughts and start a few new thoughts.

first: let me introduce myself: (don't make fun!

zannahdoll

I stole this from ZuesRocks youtube clip on this atheist definition thread:

Atheist: (n) one without belief in, or one who lacks a belief in, the existence of a god or god(s).

You have no belief. You have nothing to prove or disprove, I get that... excuse my prior slip saying you decide not to believe, it is hard to remember. You never decided not to believe in the Spaghetti Monster, although I think you do believe in Mickey Mouse...

You may not decide not to believe in a general sense. However, at one time you did believe. You did decide to go against what you at one time you did believe. You decided there was lack of evidence, and therefore decided no belief. Is that true? Do I have that accurately?

We both seek the truth... however we may come to different conclusions as to what the truth is. Does that make your conclusion accurate and mine false? Does that mean there are more then one truths? What if the truths conflict? If truth conflicts then one would be a lie and not true at all. Right now my truth is in conflict with yours and they are not in agreement. So I am sharing how I come to the conclusion of there being a deity, I'm sharing what is my truth... please: tell me what is false so I can know the truth better.

76

The evidence AGAINST evolution.

by nicolaou in

not in the fossil record, geographical spread or d.n.a.

it's certainly not found in the perfect 'design' of our bodies or the planet we live on.

without appealing to the supernatural or 'sacred texts' where can solid evidence be found against darwinian evolution by natural selection?.

zannahdoll

The creationist argument against Evolution that I held was the difference between micro and macro evolution...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1466790112

And I was taught, and accepted, that the discovery of Lucy ended up being inaccurate, that she was actually two separate animals mistaken for one or something to that effect... However now I'm not finding anything about Lucy being false except from Christian websites... interesting... I may have to rethink this knowing she was one whole ape-person.

At any rate: I have always believed that the lack of a god's existence being proven by evolution is a non sequitor... Even with the big bang or any evolutionist theory, to me, it is logical to think, it also had a start by something that doesn't need a start. Evolution and Creation do not need to be at odds...

zoiks

Thank you for addressing Lee Strobel... I see a lot of people find him laughable... I'm still learning and I, admittedly, am ignorant of the details of scientific fact...

What I get from Lee Strobel is how he speaks of it not being coincidence... how so many things happen when the probability is so unlikely. Now someone else on this board said to me something to the effect of that not being much different then picking up a grain of sand - there are billions and billions of grains of sand: yet one grain can be picked up... to which I said: yes: however: if that grain were blown to glass, and further shaped into an animal... maybe further color was added and even further gears giving it mobility... this would no longer be considered chance. One argument I enjoy still is the Watchmaker Argument... lately I've enjoyed watching youtube clips from the Thinking Atheist and even more from the Atheist Experiment... Here is an atheist's answer to the watchmaker argument (Designer Stubble the eye is mentioned):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URXuuVmgO0M

This nearly debunks the whole watchmaker argument (which Lee Strobel continues to make repeatedly only using different things then watches)... however, in spite of the great logic of Matt Dillahunty (the atheist speaking in this youtube clip) I still see the watchmaker analogy has a good point... because I don't see the common factor being whether or not watches and people occur naturally. I see the common factor being how intricate watches are and, even more so, how incredibly intricate nature (people, animals, rocks, etc) are...

Designer Stubble what's wrong with the intricacy of the human eye?

22

Do you like Sunsets? why?

by cyberjesus in

jw
friends

people like to stop and appreciate a sunset.... but what is it they enjoy?

what do you enjoy?

who say its beautiful?.

zannahdoll

isn't it subjective that sunsets are beautiful? if it is subjective then why is there a greater amount of people who agree that they are beautiful? who decides? if you don't think it is beautiful then does that mean it isn't? or is it beautiful, only you don't appreciate it?

are there standards for beauty?

OnTheWayOut

"large fleshy mammaries" you made me laugh, thanks

21

oh, what to believe! (everyone welcome, atheists and agnostics especially)

by zannahdoll in

i was invited by a friend to view a thread that was 7 months old and i made my first posts in that thread but i think, being an old thread, i may miss out on talking to some of you.

so, for a fresh start: i'm going to repost a few thoughts and start a few new thoughts.

first: let me introduce myself: (don't make fun!

zannahdoll

cyberjesus

I'm actually okay with people not believing. The times I have indulged in conversations with those who think differently I enjoy it immensely. Two of my dearest friends are a married couple: she a theist and he an atheist... the husband I've known for years now and I never bother him about being an atheist... I have, in fact, told him that I consider him kinder then a great many Christians I know. It has never been my style to push religion down people's throats... I am sincerely asking about what I consider, for myself personally, convincing evidence, why are these things dismissed? I am also asking about belief in God without religion... we can bring up many cons to religion... I'm trying to be a little more direct.

You did the same, you have threads here when you were exploring that ask if no god then why the universe or if no god then why so on and so forth...

You ask "How about being ok with not belief?" - well, it so happens that some atheists are not okay with belief... I've had a few atheists who are either strangers or mere acquaintances come on my facebook page posting their opinions and sending me videos... you would think he was like a door-to-door sales man for non-belief. I never went to their pages or sent them movies. They didn't make good arguments nor did they make a good impression.

Also, very recently I was told by atheist friend that I care about a great deal that it is pathetic to have belief... (a little bigoted maybe?)

Yet thus far, there are many, many good reasons to see there is no god - and they have gotten my attention especially since those reasons have been brought to my attention by someone I care for... however I still see reason to believe: and it hasn't been knocked down... almost... but not quite.

As I said before:

I see it as this: it comes down to which came first: the imagination to create a god - OR - A Force in the Universe that creates an imagination to conclude that God exists.

Really: that ends up being a matter of opinion or personal revelation. I have had many, many, many things happen to me personally that I can't shake off as my imagination. That is what stimulates my belief. And I can't prove it... I also believe other people I trust to be honest when they have told me how God or the Supernatural was revealed to them.

Yesterday I was surrounded by people and I was reading, I said something out loud, but no one was paying any attention to me. It did happen: that I spoke out loud. However no one heard me because they were busy doing their own thing and there were other noises buzzing... I have no one to collaborate my story... you all will probably take my word for it because it isn't so outrageous a claim... however other things happen and I believe it is supernatural: you all will probably explain it as a trick of the mind or by science. Even then there would still be the question as to why the mind plays tricks and how science could make some accomplishments, and if you have answers to those questions you can further ask "why" --- or you can accept it for what it is and not be so philosophical. I'm in the middle: accepting things at face value, to function in the world, and then asking why...

Now am I deciding to believe in God - yes. You are also deciding not to have belief. There is no proof one way or the other to the atheist. To the theist there are miracles - however, no matter how incredible and no matter how supernatural a miracle is the atheist can still find a logical way to explain it away... and the theist can find even that logic, even science, to only further show it to be miraculous.

I still believe in miracles...

76

The evidence AGAINST evolution.

by nicolaou in

not in the fossil record, geographical spread or d.n.a.

it's certainly not found in the perfect 'design' of our bodies or the planet we live on.

without appealing to the supernatural or 'sacred texts' where can solid evidence be found against darwinian evolution by natural selection?.

zannahdoll

I'm still hanging on as a theist... I don't see any proof against evolution exactly, however I also do not see evolution as contrary to the concept of God. Evolution does not disprove the existence of God, it may give trouble to religious teachings, however, over all a theist can believe in Evolution, only that it is God who started off the Big Bang... a first cause.

I've posted these videos a few other places on this board (sorry for the repeats) but I don't know if anyone has looked at them: here is one guy's attempt of explaining evidence of God through science... He claims he was an atheist who became a theist... I've heard some critiques about him: that his facts are inaccurate and that he never was an atheist, however I find him convincing...

Evidence of God: Physics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN2oc7l1mPU

Evidence of God: DNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUw6aRB9VMg&feature=related

Evidence Against Darwin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTfSe194J5w&p=4AFD47B5C919191C&playnext=1&index=1

The Fossil Record Proves Creation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsJmBevvR0Y&feature=related

69

If theres no God why the earth, the brain the universe? (Atheist and Agnostics)

by cyberjesus in

(this question is directed to all the atheist and agnostics in the forum only).

i like most of the people here believed in a god who created us and the earth.

it was easy to explain the reason on many things like the degrees of inclination of the earth, the existance of water in our planet, the existance of an atmosphere, they joy in all the senses, the clear superiority of the human beens versus all other animals, the posesion of a brain who attempts to explain itself.

zannahdoll

YouTube clips...

I Love Lucy

Lucy Wants A Paris Gown (I Love Lucy) Part 1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDk_PMqBNc0&p=918508E6C2E07EB2&playnext=1&index=78

Lucy Wants A Paris Gown (I Love Lucy) Part 2/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htExe1vYLYM&feature=related

69

If theres no God why the earth, the brain the universe? (Atheist and Agnostics)

by cyberjesus in

(this question is directed to all the atheist and agnostics in the forum only).

i like most of the people here believed in a god who created us and the earth.

it was easy to explain the reason on many things like the degrees of inclination of the earth, the existance of water in our planet, the existance of an atmosphere, they joy in all the senses, the clear superiority of the human beens versus all other animals, the posesion of a brain who attempts to explain itself.

zannahdoll

Terry

I am loving your mind! The points you make and the way you articulate your arguments are beautiful. It is a genuine pleasure reading your posts.

Sometimes taste can be confused with prejudice... but I digress...

So, then, is it your belief that as the art community would pick your friend over the amateur, simply knowing better, an atheist would pick not to have belief whereas the theist, as the bank tellers pick the amateur in your analogy, would choose belief?

I just thought of an I Love Lucy episode: "Lucy Wants a Paris Gown" Lucy and Ethel go to a Jacque Marcel Fashion Show. Okay, cheesy I know, but I'm going somewhere with this...

Let's say Jacque Marcel, in correlation to your analogy, is the professional artist. Ricky and Fred are the amateur artists (more like pranksters). Lucy and Ethel are the bank tellers (but Lucy and Ethel are art wannabe fashionistas).

Lucy and Ethel, trusting the fashion expert, want Jacque Marcel dresses. Ricky insists they are too expensive. While having lunch at a cafe Fred and Ricky see a model from the fashion show walk by wearing a Jacque Marcel dress. Fred and Ricky think the high fashion look ridiculous. So Ricky and Fred decide to have dresses made out of burlap potato sacks and hats out of a horse feeder and present them as a gift to their wives passing them off as Jacque Marcel dresses so they don't have to buy the expensive ones... Bank Tellers that Lucy and Ethel were, they LOVED the dresses. They put them on and everyone goes to the cafe to eat. Next thing you know Jacque Marcel passes them with a few of the models. He stares at them. Lucy and Ethel think they should go up to him to say hello; they want to thank him and compliment him on the dresses. Before they get to do this Ricky starts laughing at them and says he really fooled them; he admits the dresses are not Jacque Marcel dresses and Lucy and Ethel are humiliated. So another day passes, they are again having lunch at the cafe and Jacque walks by with his models... only this time the professional artist dressed his models in exact replicas of the dresses and hats Ricky and Fred had made out of potato sacks and horse feeders. The professional artist decided that the amateur artists' work (which to the original creator was it a not work of art, but an absurd joke)... well, the professional artist decided that the amateur's JOKE was in fact, high fashion.

I have gone to museums and art shows where I will see pieces of trash glued together and it will be considered a priceless work of art or a canvas painted in only one solid color and it will have a price tag for thousands of thousands of dollars. And these museums or art shows are not put on by amateurs: this is in the art world...

I agree that there is skill and technique with art. I agree that with experience you get better. In my opinion there are things that should be considered art, and those that should not. There is art that is good and art that is bad. (going back to my thought of the sunset: are there universal beauties? Or is it our perception that makes it beautiful? If we are not there is it no longer beautiful?) I would like to say: yes, there are things beautiful, and things that are ugly... but there is a level of subjectivity.

Being a doctor some subjectivity too (I've heard a joke as to that is why they call it "practicing" medicine) and there are opinions as to what course of action will work best depending on a ton of different variables, what is ethical, and often making hypotheses to fill in the blanks when there is knowledge unknown and hoping for the best...

Opinions on art, even among professionals differs. Opinions in medicine differ. And, while amateurs may not have the skill level they sometimes, maybe often, can recognize the skill (put an amateur dancer next to a skilled dancer, or a singer with lack of training next to one with training... nearly all of us sees or hears the difference)

I see it as this: it comes down to which came first: the imagination to create a god - OR - A Force in the Universe that creates an imagination to conclude that God exists.

There isn't a right or wrong... there isn't a choice that the experts choose while the ignoramuses choose another...

21

oh, what to believe! (everyone welcome, atheists and agnostics especially)

by zannahdoll in

i was invited by a friend to view a thread that was 7 months old and i made my first posts in that thread but i think, being an old thread, i may miss out on talking to some of you.

so, for a fresh start: i'm going to repost a few thoughts and start a few new thoughts.

first: let me introduce myself: (don't make fun!

zannahdoll

Nathan Natas

Thanks - I do like humor... (except when you get to the Catholic jokes I can be a little sensitive, kinda like telling a kid with a fat mom "yo mama's so fat" jokes) The video you has makes a good point (it made me laugh too) however, to me, that shows more the shortcomings of religion, specifically Christianity, and even more specifically the ones that go door to door... it doesn't really address your take on the questions I have about why you do not believe in God or your opinions on the things I asked about.

Dark Side

Good point, I agree with you in part, however most of our actions were first conceived as thoughts. Often what we do is based on what we believe, or on the concepts taught to us through our beliefs.

I see it as this: it comes down to which came first: the imagination to create a god - OR - A Force in the Universe that creates an imagination to conclude that God exists.

116

Definition of Atheist

by ZeusRocks in

jw
friends

i've noticed on so many threads people misrepresenting what and atheist is.

so hopefully anyone who is so inclined can view this clip to get it a bit of clarity on the definition, so others don't have to constantly repeat themselves and correct uneducated assertions on what atheism is.. enjoy.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt1wdnrkllq.

zannahdoll

ZeusRocks

Good post. I appreciate your definition and I did have it wrong before. I took the definition from both the dictionary and other theists. I think language is fascinating. I always believed, until recently, that being an atheist meant that a person was sure God did not exist (making that a belief in and of itself) and that it was the agnostic who said that there is a possibility for God... With your definition of atheist I don't know why anyone would be agnostic now... (maybe, agnostics, you can clarify why you are what you are?) Also: what would be the word(s) for a person who would claim there is no possibility for God?

Besides, this thread was about theists who continuously twist what atheism actually is to suit their own point of view, because they are either don't understand or can't be bothered to actually look it up.

I have to agree with onemore here: those that look it up would get what you call the wrong definition. I looked it up a very long time ago.

Earlier in this thread you say:

A lot of god believers don't seem to be concerned with what is actually honest and truthful, hence it's near impossible to have any honest conversation as shown by their reaction at being corrected with their flimsy and downright incorrect definition of atheist they use in arguments.

That isn't true of me. When I was a teenager I visited atheist forums all the time to see what they would say and understand. After a year or two of that I felt I heard it all and maintained my convictions in a God. I felt I exhausted learning the atheist point of view. I still have dabbled in learning about religions other then my own, enjoy mythology and stories of all sorts (especially the Greeks), and I have taken a few philosophy classes which I loved. I am always interested in learning what other people think and why they think that way regardless of if they are an atheist or not. I have questioned many things, so far I continue to be Catholic. (we have answers for everything! ) It is just very recently that a friend I love, who is atheist, has opened my eyes further and corrected some of my thinking which was in error. And now I am questioning my faith, I haven't given it up just yet, and I may not. However right now I'm intently listening to atheists and very interested in what they have to say... I haven't been for a long time (since I was a teenager).