Posts by rawe

Good news! 51 tickets have been sold so the event is now confirmed. There are still 61 spots available for any that have not yet bought a ticket ($12 each).

Cheers,

-Randy

16

TRUTH BE TOLD - new film on JWs previewing tomorrow night (Thursday) at Laemmle's in Los Angeles!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

sept. 12th (tomorrow night) in los angeles right by the freeway - 405 and santa monica blvd.. i'll be there!.

well the link is also here:.

gregorio smith is an independent filmmaker and writer.

rawe

Hi Randall,

This film is also coming to Phoenix, where I live.

http://www.tugg.com/events/5361

So far they've sold 34 tickets. They need to sell another 15 in the next 18 hours for the event to go forward. I hope it does, and am looking forward to seeing it.

Regards,

-Randy

ps. I have visited your FreeMinds website on and off over several years. Thank you for all your hard work!

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi mP,

Just dropping by to say thanks -- I'm reading through your latest post.

I've been thinking about actually taking up your challenge directly. Although it would take some time to read all of the books said to be written by Paul. But I am interested in this in any regards, esp how often different phrases are used like "God", "Lord", "Jesus", etc, then of course how often Paul make some historical, even in passing, reference to Jesus.

Cheers,

-Randy

4

Truth Be Told - Phoenix - 9/19

by rawe in

jw
friends

the truth be told film is coming to phoenix.

hope to see you there :-).

http://www.tugg.com/events/5361.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

When I posted this note they had sold 12 tickets, I now see they're up to 25. They have 24 more to go for the event to happen. I'm now hoping it will happen just to see that many Ex-JWs in one place!

Cheers,

-Randy

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi mP,

How exactly does that make my assertion wrong ? The gospels talk about Jesus does that make them *wrong* for the same reason because they talk about mundane and grander things ?

(disclaimer: In case someone sees just single posts of mine, you should know I an atheist and am not arguing for the idea Jesus was God, rather just exploring what reasonable conclusions can we reach from NT material).

I probably wouldn't say Paul's comment philosophy makes your assertion wrong. I would say we don't have enough information to make strong right vs wrong declarations. I went back a few posts to grab what you said...

Even Paul knows nothing about Jesus the man. scan thru all his writings and write down the facts you learn about jesus. stop when you get to 5. You wont learn about his family, where he went, what miracles he did, when he lived, who his apostles were and so on.

First, I think that is a great challenge for any Christian to under take. When I ran across this in the Brian Flemming film it really struck my how obvious things can be in the Bible, but unless you're doing critical analysis you'll miss it. The other alternative is to have someone point this out to you. Now of course Flemming asserts Paul's lack of commentary is part of the proof the historical Jesus did not exist. Your assertion is more mild, just that Paul knows nothing about Jesus. And my assertion is even more mild, that all we can say is if Paul did know specific details of the life of the historical Jesus he didn't report on them.

To use your George Washington example, if you referenced GW with nearly every post to point out what an important man he was to your philosophy, should we find it odd, that you refrain from citing any specific about the life of GW? Maybe. But I'm not sure that could be used as proof that you didn't really know any about GW.

In regards to the gospels, my feelings are they are different than Paul's writings for two reasons. The obvious is different authors have different styles. But I think the biggest difference is in purpose -- the intent of the gospels (esp the synoptic ones) was the capture a life-story of Jesus. Likely the ones selected for the Bible canon were the most popular and most trusted of their day. One of the challenges a friend of mine who was in the process of leaving the faith, while I was still strongly in, gave me was to reconcile the resurrection accounts. I thought no problem, pulled out the Greatest Man book and The Bible and started. Alas, I don't think it can be done. The accounts have serious and not so easy to dismiss contraditions.

Cheers,

-Randy

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi mP,

"The argument that P didn't mention facts about J makes no sense. He often gives other mundane facts that we can assume they already knew. He repeats personal details about himself which they already knew. The easier to believe or ponder fact is that P didn't know our J. If you read the text J exists on a different spiritual plane. P's Judaism is different from that of the apostles."

Alas, we can't go back in time and interview Paul or Jesus. Probably the best we can do is get a sense or feeling about what Paul knew about Jesus and what he didn't based on the material we have. As per the record in Acts, Paul, in fact did not know Jesus personally, so I would argue that favors the idea he wouldn't reflect on specific details from the historical life of Jesus.

Consider Paul's words a Colossians 2: " See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces [ a ] of this world rather than on Christ. "

I think the mention of "philosophy" is key to understanding Paul. The Roman world of his day, was influenced by Greek philosophy. Paul even quotes from the Stoic Philosopher Aratus at Acts 17:28 " For we are also His offspring ." Paul viewed knowledge about the Christ as the answer to competing philosophy of his day. Also notice when Paul make these sort of arguments his stress on "Christ" rather than "Jesus."

Even many modern preachers of Christianity talk very little about the historical details of Jesus life.

In summary my argument is, given that Paul did not know Jesus personally and his style was to focus on philosophical aspects of belief, we should not expect him to comment on many historical details of Jesus life. Even so, there is at least one case of historical reflection. 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, reflects on the last supper event.

Cheers,

-Randy

4

Truth Be Told - Phoenix - 9/19

by rawe in

jw
friends

the truth be told film is coming to phoenix.

hope to see you there :-).

http://www.tugg.com/events/5361.

rawe

Hi Everyone,

The Truth Be Told film is coming to Phoenix. Hope to see you there :-)

http://www.tugg.com/events/5361

Cheers,

-Randy

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi Rose Mary,

"Lazarus was reportedly resurrected after being four days in the tomb, hence is not an ordinary event, but most spectacular display of power, and was the grand finale of miracles; yet why did all three gospel accounts which were written earlier did not know of this great event, but found only in the Gospel of John written towards 96-98 AD?"

The resurrection of Lazarus is interesting. It is as you say, only recorded in John, a very late and different Gospel. A few bits of John strike me as attempt to answer likely objections to other accounts in circulation. When Jesus mentions the signal of "dipping the morsel" and giving it to Judas it is John that tells us about the "leaning back" (John 13:25 vs Matthew 26:23, Mark 14:20, Luke 22:23), thus answering the question of why Judas was not tipped off.

One could argue that the resurrection of Lazarus was so well known during the eyewitness period it didn't need to be written down. That seems unlikely, considering that Luke says he had traced "all" things, it would be rather hard to justify leaving this out of the story.

The story of Lazarus seems to serve a couple purposes. It certainly could answer any objection that earlier accounts of ressurections involved people that weren't really dead. I would also suggest, as time marched on, there would be growing concern in the community of believers about the return of Jesus, the fate of those who already had died and their own life coming to an end. Not at all unlike the feelings some long time members of our former faith, who hoped all their lives for a get-out-of-jail-free card in regards to death.

You'll notice, in the account Jesus intentionally delays (John 11:6) to the point Lazarus dies.

Cheers,

-Randy

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi mP,

"Even Paul knows nothing about Jesus the man. scan thru all his writings and write down the facts you learn about jesus."

It is amazing that one can spead a life time reading the Bible and not see obvious details like this. Only after I left the faith for several years, did I finally watch the documentary The God Who Wasn't There, by Brian Flemming, wherein I saw this point made for the first time.

Since then I have thought about this argument. I will say it is interesting and is something that could support the notion that Jesus never really existed. However, I think there are a couple reasonable ways of explaining this issue. Paul generally wrote letters to congregations of believers, who would already know the back story of Jesus. As a writer, his style does not seem to be one of historical reflection, but instead on knowledge of God wrapped in the Christ (Col 2:3).

Paul is introduced to us in Acts, which is really a continuation of Luke, that is of course one of the gospels that has the life story of Jesus.

Finally, I would think that a need for a written narrative of the life of Jesus would grow as the eyewitness period was ending. This, could be the reason why the first Christian writings are Paul's letters, followed by the 3 gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke).

Cheers,

-Randy