Posts by rawe

64

Look, Up in the Air...It's a Bird, it's a Plane...No, It's a JW!!

by Cold Steel in

for you ex-jehovahs witnesses...and even you current ones...have you ever contemplated your future existence in paradise earth, should you be fortunate enough to end up there?

during those raucous, fun moments at the kingdom hall when you were contemplating eternity and having the times of your lives...did you ever speculate about what life would be like?

for example, would you have to walk everywhere or would you be able to fly around like superman?

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"At the time the Book of Mormon came forth, no gold, brass or other metal records had been discovered."

There simply is no physical evidence the Book of Mormon is any older than when it appeared in the 1830s. Do you know of any? The existence of the KJV text in the Book of Mormon is not easily dismissed either. The production of the KJV in 1611 was a non-trivial exercise. I'm sure if the King James translators could see several consectutive chapters of their translation of Isaiah plagerized into Nephi they would rightly complain.

A further irony between the two faiths orbits around the divine name "Jehovah."

The KJV translators translated most Hebrew words into the equivalent 17th century English words. But in one special case, they decided to substitute rather than translate and that was... you guessed it... the divine name YHWH came out as LORD in English, rather than Jehovah. And since the divine name appears so many times in the OT, the KJV translators effectively signed nearly every page of their work. However, in one case in Isaiah faced with a double form of the divine name they translated Jah Jehovah as LORD Jehovah. See 2 Nephi 22:2 compared to Isaiah 12:2.

This of course is only the start of the problems. Surely one is left to wonder why a Greek word like "Christ" appears in a text that should have no Greek influence. The name Timothy also has this problem (3 Nephi 19:4).

When I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses I often would go online and discuss the LDS faith on Usenet a.r.m group. It was sort of like a safe proxy to explore my own faith. At the time I concluded we Witnesses had a more solid basis for our faith. At least the Bible is an authentically old collection of books with many aspects of verifiable historical settings. Since leaving the Witnesses and realizing how foolish some of my ideas were, such accepting Genesis creation and flood accounts as real history, my views on this have shifed. I would now argue that so much more is involved in a life-emcompassing faith like Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter-day Saints, that problems with faith claims wind up being easily dismissed at the first bit of apologetics we read, because the alternative would be world-shattering.

Cheers,

-Randy

102

Since leaving the truth, do you celebrate holidays, and does your participation in such bring you happiness?

by Stand for Pure Worship in

jw
friends

i ask this respectfully, and do so after watching a favorite show of mine's season opener which had a new years storyline.

hollywood tends to make movies and television show episodes centered around holiday themes appear warm and blissful.

while i'm thankful to have never participated in such holidays, i can't deny my curiosity about ex-jws that do celebrate.

rawe

Hi Stand For Pure Worship,

"Since leaving the truth, do you celebrate holidays, and does your participation in such bring you happiness?"

I would use the word "faith" when you say "truth", however, yes and yes.

When we left in October 2007 I was determined to live my life basically just as I did when in the faith minus going to meetings and out in service. Since I am an atheist I felt no particular draw to any of the holidays. I never felt that either as a child or when raising my own children that was I was missing a great deal by not participating.

Since I had fond memories of looking through the Sears Christmas Wishbook as a kid, I did the following while in the faith... I told my girls that when the Wishbook came out, we would give each girl an amount of money to spend and they could order something. Thus getting the Christmas Wishbook was always a big event in our household. I also enjoyed going to visit my in-laws (very nice folks!) during the Christmas break, where we would enjoy time together and a meal, often including a turkey. Most of us were Witnesses so other than the turkey dinner there was nothing else that reflected Christmas.

After leaving in 2007, in 2009 I decided to go ahead and celebrate Christmas. My change of heart came about in a couple different ways. First, I had to consider if it made sense to ask my children to live as Witnesses while we did not otherwise participate in the faith.

Then I thought about what not celebrating meant. Basically it would be an outward show of respect for a faith I was no longer part of. It also inevitably means a mild form of condemnation for the majority in our neighborhood who do. In particular, could I say, I continued to have respect for the basic reasons Rutherford chose to distance himself and his followers from nominal Christianity? Although one cannot be dogmatic on the point, it seems clear to me the failure of 1925 predictions may have lead to superstitions about being tainted by "Christendom", Rutherford may have also had a lingering anomosity towards "Christendom" thinking they were behind his being put in jail. Thus, nixing this taint seems like what happened, no cross, Jesus shown as clean shaven, no Christmas all speak to this.

Then there is the boogeyman of "pagan", with "here a pagan", "there a pagan", "everywhere a pagan, pagan" So... do I really have such wonderfully moral high-ground that I can look down upon the pagan influences of Christmas and condemn them? Actually, I think it is the opposite. Surviving the cold and deprivations of winter has been a challenge to our survival for eons. Welcoming back the warmth of the sun, does, in fact, seem like a pretty good reason to celebrate!

Thus we went ahead and the rest, as they say, is history.

"Do the holidays do anything for you?"

Not only is it a general time to be together as a family and to the extent I can afford it shower my wife and children with gifts, it connects me to the community. What you're doing here is similar and I applaud you for it. Namely, you appear to be asking questions truly out of curiosity and a desire to understand. So much of our lives as Witnesses involved staging questions, only as a means to preach the Kingdom message. While the motivations may be fine, in the process we lost out on discovering what really made folks outside our faith tic.

Cheers,

-Randy

7

Graphic for jwfacts.com

by Zoos in

jw
friends

i was tinkering with a picture this morning and.... .

.

rawe

Hi Blondie,

w77 4/1 p. 199 par. 8 How Can You Find Real Security?

My dad was fond of using the Titanic to illustrate how this system was going down. Here is my response...

Imagine you are on a luxury cruise ship and you encounter a passenger who shares with you that the ship is sinking. What would you do? Would you not warn others, trying to help as many as you could leave the doomed vessel? Imagine you do that, going from cabin to cabin, walking deck upon deck giving the loudest most urgent warning you can muster. Over time, convinced, many others join in with you to proclaim this warning. Some though, in your ranks begin to wonder, noting that while all of the sailing is not smooth nothing out of the ordinary happens and day after day the ship sails on. Would you not agree such defectors deserved to be punished, after all, they are putting the lives of all who listen to them in peril? Shunning such ones is the last ditch effort you can do to bring them back to their senses. Although such action makes you incredible sad, your loyalty and love demands it.

Finally after a long while the ship pulls into port and the passengers disembark. They talk about all the incredible things they saw, the exotic ports of call, the conversations that were part of day to day life on that luxury cruise ship. You think back, and can't recall that. "Where is your daughter?" one of the passengers asks. "I don't know, I started shunning her about 1/2 way through the cruise and haven't talked to her since" is your answer. It seemed you were so busy shunning and telling others the ship was in peril that you forgot about the purpose of the cruise itself!

"I thought you told me this ship was going to sink" you complain to that original passenger who shared this truth with you. He replies, "no, it is 'a ship', not 'this ship.' Where the Bible mentions 'cruise', it evidently means 'overlapping cruises'. In any regards, we must be patient and wait on Jehovah to shink the ship and when he does, we'll be glad..."

Take care,

-Randy

49

Which people in here (or apostate) would you like to actually meet in person?

by ILoveTTATT in

jw
friends

i would like to meet so many people!

actually hang out with them and see if we get along after meeting in person!.

here's my list:.

rawe

Hi ILoveTTATT,

There are face-to-face meetup groups you'll find on meetup.com, groupspaces.com and Facebook. Two groups are active in the Phoenix area where I live.

http://www.meetup.com/exjw-431/ - West Phoenix, Ex-JW meetup

http://groupspaces.com/ChandlerEx-JehovahsWitnesses/ - Chandler, Ex-JW meetup (next meeting is this Wed evening)

Cheers,

-Randy

73

Time to take my mask off.

by braincleaned in

after more than two years here on jwn, i will unmask myself and finally close the closet door behind me, fully coming out.. let me be pithy.. my name is vincent deporter.

i'm a writer/artist published a little all over the place.

i started my career in france, about 35 years ago.

rawe

Hi Vincent!

There are two Ex-JW meetups in the Phoenix area.

West Phoenix Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses - http://www.meetup.com/exjw-431/

Chandler Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses - http://groupspaces.com/ChandlerEx-JehovahsWitnesses/

Both groups meet once per month and a few times on other occassions like our annual "Shun Run". The West group usually has 5 to 8 come out. The Chandler group is a bit smaller, but usually 3 of us come out, sometimes joined by one or more others.

My story is very similar to yours. Grew up in Canada (BC) with a connection to the faith since childhood, got baptized at 16, married at 20 (to my wonderful wife Wendy!), appointed a MS, (moved to Phoenix, AZ in 1998) then later an elder. Resigned as an elder in 2005 over my growing belief in the theory of evolution and growing doubts about the existence of God. Ran into a catalyst moment involving my oldest daughter in Oct 2007 that would see me out in service in the morning, followed by leaving the faith in the afternoon.

Cheers,

-Randy

ps. I Google'd some of your art! Love it! My second daughter is taking art in college. One of the individuals I met at the West meetup worked in the art department at Bethel. He often blogs about superheros and Comicon. My wife helped him make his "Plastic Man" costume for Comicon.

120

In general, the people on this forum have a poor outlook spiritually speaking.

by Stand for Pure Worship in

jw
friends

so i waz reading the august 15 wt study article, elisha saw fiery chariots, do you?

and it made me think about this forum.

if you remember, syria was hunting god's prophet, elisha.

rawe

Hi Integ,

"Secondly, I think this was a clever attempt at satire and a very good one judging by the amount of people he/she duped."

That may be the case. And of course, Stand For Pure Worship, could come back and say, "gotcha." Nonetheless, I do think there is value in responding to such posts at face value. First it is possible SFPW is an active Witness who has decided to violate the rule of "don't read or post on Ex-JW discussion forums." If that is the case, it give us an opportunity to see how an active Witness views those who have left. Of course we need to be careful too, just like all Ex-JWs are not alike, neither are all active JWs.

Thus unless it is blatantly obvious trolling or satire, when I respond to posts I generally try to assume good faith on the part of the poster. Because, one other possibility is SFPW is an active Witness who has just begun the search for truth beyond the faith. I know in my own case, I was internally combative against the idea the "truth" wasn't really the "truth." When I showed up at my first face-to-face Ex-JW meetup I still carried my No Blood Medical Directive card. It took me one year of being out before I discarded it.

In almost all these cases, time will tell.

Cheers,

-Randy

120

In general, the people on this forum have a poor outlook spiritually speaking.

by Stand for Pure Worship in

jw
friends

so i waz reading the august 15 wt study article, elisha saw fiery chariots, do you?

and it made me think about this forum.

if you remember, syria was hunting god's prophet, elisha.

rawe

Hi Stand for Pure Worship,

"I think the problem with many of you here at JWN, was that you had the wrong motives... I hope all of you come to your spiritual senses."

When we can really see something that other's cannot it is a puzzle! Just like what you mention. Elisha's attendant, couldn't see the support they had until Jehovah openned his eyes. Why can't so many of these posters on JWN see the good that you see in the organization? Why?

Aw, but, here, lies an awful trap! We ponder again the question of "why can't they see" and arrive at... exactly the wrong answer! But the answer is so good and warm, it assure us there really isn't a problem, the problem isn't with the organization, it it is with the individual, they are defective, they have poor motives, they have lost their spiritual senses. And isn't it obvious? They've gone after all the things we know are wrong, like celebrating the holidays, some even have given up belief in Jehovah God entirely!

The awful truth is Jehovah's Witnesses simply do not have what they claim they have: The only form of "Pure Worship" based on "Truth." The divine name "Jehovah" simply has no business appearing in the Christian Greek Scriptures -- that is just a fact. In regards to the theory of evolution (something I personally found important) the publications have not been honest in their dealings.

I call it the "awful truth", but such discoveries are not embraced with glee, but often resisted at first, then only reluctantly accepted, because our conscience no longer will permit us to lend support to such dishonesty.

Take care,

-Randy

39

I need help when answering proof of WT being only religion

by DS211 in

ok so i have already been talked to about this and i always have difficulty finding a retort.

my friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda.

and he also uses how many go out and preach the same message, how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment, follow the bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love, do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc.

rawe

Hi DS,

"what would you say?"...

"My friend/elder condtantly tells me to visit Bethel to prove its gods org--efficient, obedient, loving place, yadda yadda."

True, I have not visited Bethel, however I have had friends in the faith who did. Invariably they report what you're saying. One comment I heard was you could "eat off the factory floor" it was so clean. But, do we really, I mean really, have the freedom to report something negative? You see dear friend just saying it is "God's organization" is part of the problem. When the spies went into the promised land most came back with a negative report, only Caleb and Joshua reported the good. How does the Bible frame this response? It clearly sends a message that anything from God must be reported as good!

Now that I have left the faith, I have heard other not-so-good stories about Bethel life. No, none of the counter with contrary facts, like the floors are really dirty -- they are clean -- that part is obvious. Rather you hear about crushing weight of personal freedom taken away. A story of an older brother being obviously punished because he did not want to move out of NY. Punished how? By being re-assigned to work beyond his physical ability. Loving? Not always!

Then there is this word "obedient", "to OBEY is better than sacrifice" said Samuel to Saul. Yet the three Hebrews refused to obey and bow down to the golden image. For their disobedience they were thrown into the fire. What do we do when one refuses to bow down to the golden image of the Watchtower? Do we not likewise throw them into the fire? Hoping to destroy them by cutting off all contact with friends and family?

"And he also uses how many go out and preach the same message"

And what is that message exactly? Is it the really the "good news of the Kingdom?" Let's be honest, most of the preaching is nothing but ritual for us as Witnesses. Canned presentations designed to further the interests of an organization that prints magazines, tracts and books. Does it make any sense to go out and preach to total strangers, as if we could convince them, when in fact, most of our children leave the faith? See the Pew report on Religion in the USA if you don't believe me.

"how no matter where you go youll get the same loving treatment"

Indeed, the brotherhood can be a wonderful thing. That is to their credit. But again, let's be honest, other high-control groups such as the FLDS, Amish, The People's Temple (Jonestown) and the Unification Church (Moonies), no doubt could all say the same tthing. What we do know is the organization demands that it alone controls the flow of affection that it can turn off or on as a spiget. One day, unbaptized "disapproved associates" were shunned, the next day after one Watchtower, they were not. Is that true, love? Personally motivated, according to one's own knowledge and conscience?

"follow the Bible as best they can (ha), show lots of love"

Would anyone person in the modern world really follow the Bible? If they did, would you admire them? Let's not forget the Bible calls for society to 'put to death' people for lots of different reasons such as a man having sex with his daughter-in-law, two men having sex, joining another religion, etc. How can demanding that brothers, in most, but not all, countries, be clean shaven be Biblical? Is it not time to admit, that is more the current interpretation and emphasis of parts of the Bible by the leadership that is paramount. Or consider detailed chronological Biblical studies that showed 6000 years ran from 4026 BCE to 1975 -- why is such information considered with great interest before 1975, but not afterwards? The Biblical dates are still in the Bible, aren't they?

"do t celebrate pagan holidays, etc etc."

I'll take my chances with the Pagans! I have only met one so far, and she was perfectly lovely. While Christmas has many elements tied to the story of the birth of Jesus, the pagan elements like evergreens surviving the cold winter, speak to me just as deeply! Just going around and yelling "pagan" like it is the boogey man is really not that enlightened or impressive.

Cheers,

-Randy

15

New Bible info, Jah name x6 locations & other reports

by OwnAccord in

jw
friends

here's some info i came accross & that's been circulating via email (i did not write it).

bethel lecture on the new bible.

by governing body bro geoffrey jackson.. use the new bible and get to know it read it.

rawe

Hi OwnAccord,

"Jehovah’s name – six more times in the bible. The Evidence has been found and confirmed in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other manuscripts – since our last bible. Judges 19:18, 1Sam 2:25, 1Sam 6:3, 1Sam 10:26, 1Sam 23:14, 1Sam 23:16"

#1: Judges 19:18 - not part of the Dead Sea Scrolls - page 211

#2: 1 Sam 2:25 - If one person sins gravely against another, he will appeal to the LO[R]D - ftn 46: 4QSam, God will mediate MT. - page 218

#3: 1 Sam 6:3 - They answered, ["I]f [you send back the ark of] the covenant of the LORD, God of Israel, do not send [it back empty. You must] return him a sin [of]fering. Then [you] will be healed, [and you] will make atonement for [yourselves. Will his hand not leave you?"] - ftn 73. 4QSam, LXX. Not in MT. - page 221

#4: 1 Sam 10:26 - S]aul [al]so [went to his house in Gibeah]. The valient men [wh]ose hearts the LO[RD] had touched [went] with Saul. - ftn 92, LXX. Not in MT.

#5: 1 Sam 23:14 - [David lived in the wilderness in the strongholds and stayed in the hill country in Ziph wilderness. Saul hunted for him every da]y, but the LO[RD] did not deliver him [into his hand. - ftn 142: 4QSam LXX. God MT. - page 232

#6: 1 Sam 23:16 - Jonathan, Sau]l['s son, got up and w]ent to [David at Horesh and encouraged him in the LOR]D - ftn 143: 4QSam, LXX. God Mt. - page 232

In reading the material above, note only the material not inside square brackets actually appear in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Nonetheless because of multiple sources and other careful analysis I think we can be confident that even though the tetragrammaton only appears fully in one of the references, where it appears partially it likely did stand there before this bit of the scroll deteriorated.

In the case of #1, I assume that either falls under the "other manuscripts" reference or additional Dead Sea Scrolls have been discovered since the 1999 book was published.

Material in italics indicates a variant compared to the MT (Masoretic Text). Thus for consistency one should expect the 2013 would use the entire variant from the Dead Sea Scrolls. Does it? I haven't look it up.

But... I think these restoration actually make for an interesting argument against the use of the name Jehovah entirely! No question, the oldest Dead Sea Scrolls include YHWH (or part of). However, notice in most of these cases 4QSam agrees with LXX (Septuagint) against the MT. This fact tends to show that while the LXX is a translation, it is likely more reliable than the MT. And... the Bible used by Christian writers was not the MT -- but instead the LXX. For example, Hebrews 1:6 quotes Deut 32:43 from the LXX, not the MT which is fair bit different.

Alas, we can be pretty certain that copies of the LXX used by Christian writers had already replaced YHWH with LORD and this is the reason why "Jehovah" never appears in NT writing. So if one makes the argument the 4QSam holds authority over the MT, you cannot dismiss the fact LXX often agrees with Dead Sea Scrolls against the MT.

Also, if the Dead Sea Scrolls carry authority to restore the divine name, then what about Psalm 151A in 11QPs? (page 585) This additional Psalm starts with "O A Hallelujah", has the divine name in two places and appears to be written by David in the first person! If new Psalms were added to the 2013 NWT, that would be interesting news.

Cheers,

-Randy

18

Any Fader Disfellowshipped in later Years?

by braincleaned in

hi!.

hey, did anyone here ever get disfellowshipped after years of fading, because of having been discovered online saying crap about the wts and/or the gb?.

just wondering... you know they are following these sites....

rawe

Hi Braincleaned,

I was never disfellowshipped, but after 2 1/2 years aftering leaving the faith, I was subjected to disassocation by action. This was in response to my decision to openly celebrate Christmas including putting lights on my house. As far as I am aware, there is no specific time limit after leaving wherein the elders feel that cannot act, although there is some guidance for elders in their elders-only policy manual about whether or not the individual views themselves under the authority of the congregation. In the case of disassociation by action, the decision is entirely internal to the elders and the person who is the subject of the announcement may not even be informed, or if they are, it is viewed as a "courtesy."

Sad to say, the faith concerns itself with indications of control and obedience by members and former members alike. Open displays of disobedience, even by long-time former members, can be met with reprisal.

Cheers,

-Randy