Posts by rawe

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"Note these two quotes, one from Isaiah and one from Micah. Did one quote the other, or did they both quote another source we don’t have?"

Here is the text of Isaiah 2 vs Micah 4. In both cases we know from ancient manuscripts this text is legitimately old.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Differences: (a) last days/come to pass vs come to pass/last days, (b) house of the LORD vs LORD's house.

Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Differences: (a) nations vs people, (b) go vs come, (c) ye, (d) law shall go forth/Zion vs Zion/go forth the law.

Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Differences: (a) many people vs the nations, (b) afar off.

So what does this tell us? These verses are not exact word-for-word. Nonetheless there are long phrases of material that indicate a common source, Micah quoting Isaiah or visa versa. Since both are known to be from the same time period it (732 BCE for Isaiah, 716 BCE for Micah, as per New World Translation, Table of Bible Books). The Bible is a collection of books, wherein actual original sources are not known. Looking at the Bible as a single book is just not correct. Thus it is entirely reasonable to believe religious thoughts of the Jews were written in several places then finally collected and redacted to become the Bible books we have today. You'll notice for example Psalms 14 is repeated as Psalms 53. While a modern Bible makes it look like Psalms is one book, in reality it is a collection of psalms that were originally on different five different scrolls. Thus it should not be surprising that an one psalm wound up in two collections.

Notice too the type of difference here, one is word order and different words. This is what one would expect, for material from a similar source, but varied slightly, then translated into English. It is for these reasons why one cannot really deny KJV text is copied into the Book of Mormon.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"Nephi and other prophets in the Western Hemisphere had the book of Isaiah and likened portions of it to themselves; however, these passages were very intelligently used and applied. They just weren’t data dumps. And if you compare the texts, they also weren’t word-for-word transliterations."

What the Book of Mormon contains in these sections is not an original translation from Hebrew to reformed Egyptian to English. The language "reformed Egyptian" is mentioned in the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:32), but otherwise there is no evidence such a language ever existed. What the Book of Mormon contains in these sections is word-for-word KJV text of 1611. Obviously, the story of the Book of Mormon does not allow for KJV text of 1611 to be a source. What you say, though is key, lets compare the text, this is easy and beyond any further arguing. It is either word-for-word KJV or it is not. I've suggested 2 Nephi 22 vs KJV Isaiah 12.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/22?lang=eng

vs

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2012&version=KJV

Here is the text...

2 Nephi 22:1 And in that day thou shalt say: O Lord, I will praise thee;
though thou wast angry with me thine anger is turned away, and
thou comfortedst me.

Isaiah 12:1 And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee:
though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and
thou comfortedst me.

2 Nephi 22:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid;
for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also has
become my salvation.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid:
for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is
become my salvation.

2 Nephi 22:3 Therefore, with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of
salvation.

Isaiah 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of
salvation.

2 Nephi 22:4 And in that day shall ye say: Praise the Lord, call upon his
name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his
name is exalted.

Isaiah 12:4 And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his
name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his
name is exalted.

2 Nephi 22:5 Sing unto the Lord; for he hath done excellent things; this is
known in all the earth.

Isaiah 12:5 Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is
known in all the earth.

2 Nephi 22: Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion; for great is the
Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Isaiah 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the
Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

The reason why I've been pointing to 2 Nephi 22, is it shows a translation style of the KJV translators. Where the divine name YHWH appears in Hebrew, they typically did not translate it, but instead substituted the word LORD. There are a few exceptions to this general rule and this is one, where LORD JEHOVAH is the translation of the Hebrew phrase Jah-Jehovah. Nonetheless as you can see it is word-for-word and this goes on for several chapters in this section.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Designs,

"Clever, dupes a lot of readers, but on careful examination the BOM falls hard just like the NT."

There are some important differences though. The NT is a collection of books by different authors written in ancient Greek. We have on hand bona fide copies of early manuscripts, such as the one I saw (P45) at Chester Beaty Library in Dublin. In contrast not a single shred of physical evidence places the Book of Mormon in a period prior to the 1830s or in a language other than English (16th century English at that). You'll notice arguments always tend to focus on unique theories regarding the setting of the Book of Mormon (a bit in Jerusalem area then a move to the Americas). No one points to originals of the gold plates for inspection and non-biased translation. It is also true the NT quotes the OT (usually a the Septuagint -- a Greeek translation of the OT). However, nowhere would you find several consecutive chapters of the OT copied verbatim into the NT -- let alone the source of the copying being the KJV of 1611!

It should be noted, that even if the Book of Mormon had an accurate setting, that in itself would not lift up beyond fiction. Works of fiction often have relatively believable settings.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi 2+2=5,

"Were you once a JW Cold Steel? Why the fascination with this site? Are you here to convert us?"

Cold Steel answered that near the top of this thread. His interest in Jehovah's Witnesses stems from some family members that left the LDS faith to become Jehovah's Witnesses.

Cheers,

-Randy

186

Just out of curiosity, how many elders (current & ex) do we have here?

by mrquik in

jw
friends

me.

rawe

Hi Stand for Pure Worship,

"In harmony with this thread, I'm currently serving as an elder, and after being appointed is when I started questioning things. To be exact, it was roughly a year after being appointed and really reading the Bible that I started to realize something is wrong in WT Land. Now I'm struggling with losing family, and some close friends as well."

Hence the need for forms like this. Fortunately as several accounts here relate it is possible to make the break and lead a relatively normal life. We had several Ex-JWs over for our end-of-the-year/Christmas party last night. It is nice to see and hear how everyone is doing. Sitting on the couch I looked over the table where most will still sitting and reflected on the fact there were four Ex-Bethelites were at the table. Even during all my years as a Witness I never had as much contact with those who went to Bethel.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"The Book of Mormon. . .comprised some 420,000 words"

I have a text file copy of the Book of Mormon, here is what the wc (word count) command reports...

$ wc bom.txt
80232 293174 1589019 bom.txt

The three numbers are # of lines, # of words and # of characters. Thus 293,174 words[1]. This is the Project Gutenberg edition released on March 8, 1992. Also, keep in mind about 10% of the Book of Mormon is text from the KJV. Some have also suggested Joseph Smith used material from others besides the Bible. That bit I haven't looked into, but it could help explain the quick production of the material. Ironically (and correct me if I'm wrong on this point) the Book of Mormon today is smaller than it would have been, had the first 100 pages or so not been stolen, so as to challenge Joseph Smith's ability to reproduce them, after all he claimed access to original source material and special divine powers to translate. His response, was to report than an angel commanded him not to reproduce those stolen pages.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] Word count for the Book of Mormon itself, would be slightly smaller number since this file starts with a few pages about Project Gutenberg.

43

Disciplinary Actions

by Cold Steel in

during a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation?

an advocate?.

why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"During a disciplinary procedure, what would the response be if you wanted representation? An advocate?"

As others have answered, that would not be allowed.

"Why don't they have a group of unbiased men, a prosecutor to present the case against you and an advocate that would represent the accused?"

The elders who meet with an individual being judged are called a "judicial committee" however it is not like normal court proceedings. One of the first big problems with this quasi-judicial process is the men are untrained volunteers who for the most part have other secular responsibilities. Thus a lightly loaded elder body may put considerable effort into a case and carefully research both the Bible and Watchtower provided material to insure the best judgement possible is given (that is, at least consistent with how the system is suppose to work). However, it is just as possible, little time is available or case after case has frustrated the elders and there is a shift towards greater harshness. Cases are reviewed by HQs and Circuit Overseers, therefore there is some review, but local elders are usually quick to learn what is required to insure all the paper work for these cases are in order. Of course, the victim of the process gets to see none of the notes taken or content of the forms set to HQs.

At elder's school sample cases are sometimes reviewed. I clearly recall one case, where local elders decided to wait for a congregation member to return from a motorcycle trip before they met and decided on the case. Their decision was ridiculed by the presenter at the school -- the not so subtle message was clear -- you *the elder* are in control, don't let the member dictate how the proceedings will happen.

Then, there is something that is nearly completely insane about this entire enterprise. The "case" is not really about what the person did or did not do. Yes, of course, that is established at the outset, yes, sister so-and-so, you did commit fornication with so-and-so. But once that is established, the judgement is in regards to "repentance". In some cases this presents no problem, since the person has not "turned around" (i.e. stopped the proscribed behavior) and that is well established, a move to disfellowship will be in order. But in other cases, it essentially is a game of mind reading, trying to determine if the individual feels sorry for what they have done. Very subjective, especially for men who have no formal training in things like psychology or human sexaulity.

Most cases involve "sexual sins", however folks who leave the faith can face reprisal for doing so (hence all the 'fading' talk you hear here). There is no time limit to this, but tends to orbit around signs of no longer being obedient to rules that govern members of the faith. Thus even after leaving for a year or two, someone who openly celebrates Christmas may find themselves subject to this process. Or consider the example of this forum itself. Some on the forum are active Witnesses. Absolutely none of what they post may be incorrect or even unfavorable towards the faith. Yet, if their posting became known it is entirely possible, that could land them in hot water that could eventually lead them to being disfellowshipped for apostasy!

"It just doesn't seem right when the judges are the prosectors and YOU have no representation. It certainly doesn't seem fair."

Of course! There are very good reasons why court systems in most countries work they way they do. Why everything spoken in court is recorded. How evidence is handled, how questions are asked and responded to, etc.

"I understand, too, that you can appeal a decision to elders in a different KH. But have you ever known of a decision to be reversed? This isn't a rhetorical question; I really don't know. Also, if a person goes into a disciplinary court, if that person is humbly repentant, is that normally enough to get him/her off the hook? Or in many times has the decision already been made?"

If a decision to disfellowshipped was appealed and the appeal committee overturned the decision the individaul would be informed. Regarding, "humbly repentant"... indeed, a young couple engaged to marry may have sex before they are married, if no one knew of this and they confessed, perhaps breaking down in tears, then a decision to "privately reprove" could be given.

Cheers,

-Randy

186

Just out of curiosity, how many elders (current & ex) do we have here?

by mrquik in

jw
friends

me.

rawe

Hi Mrquick,

I served as an elder, resigning in 2005, then leaving the faith in 2007.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

You'll notice I don't comment that much on LDS history. That aspect of the faith does not interest me. However, how the Bible has come into existence and been translated is of great interest to me. So, when you say this...

"Even when Isaiah is quoted in the Book of Mormon"

my comment is, this statement lacks precision. The Book of Mormon, contains, in copious amounts, text from the King James Version of the Bible. Never does the Book of Mormon "quote" Isaiah, which was written in Hebrew. Translating from Hebrew into English is a non-trivial exercise. Both word choice and syntax will result in a unique translation, even though others may equally convey the meaning. If translators are compelled to work with deficient manuscripts or are burdened with certain religious bias, that will show up, sometimes including mistakes, that only become obvious when older manuscripts are discovered.

The truth of this is easily available, all one has to do is invest a bit of time in reading how Bible translation is generally done, how the KJV of 1611 was specifically created and then just open the Book of Mormon side-by-side with a KJV Bible and compare. In previous posts, I've pointed to 2 Nephi 22 compared to KJV Isaiah 12 as an example.

Cheers,

-Randy

139

Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

by rawe in

has anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?

what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.

if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.

rawe

Hi Cold Steel,

"There's no ritual shunning, Latter-day Saints can visit any church they want or read any religious materials they wish."

Compared to the Witnesses this is a point in favor for Latter-day Saints. As is this...

"They're actually encouraged to seek the highest education they can"

John Cedars is an Ex-JW who sometimes posts on this site and he is the author behind jwsurvey.org. He asked about shunning on exmormonforums.com. One response he got from "Rainfeather" was this:

From what I've heard about the way people are treated when they leave the JWs, yes I would say they are worse. With Mormonism, it's more of an individual thing. One family might tolerate a member who has left, while another family will shun entirely. It's a different experience for everyone. But the stories of shunning are just so sad and it's all so unnecessary.

"The Latter-day Saints are completely different, but there's no convincing some people."

I do not assert the Latter-day Saints are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses. Several aspects of those differences are exactly what you highlight in your post. What seems to be the case is this. For believers in either faith the focus is on doctrinal points and what supports those. The doctrine is all important, because it is correct and the truth, for reasons X, Y, Z. In the initial stages of doubting most disaffected members begin to examine the foundation of those doctrines and find them faulty. However, after awhile the focus shifts to aspects of how one was mislead, how wrong, but subtle arguments were presented and reinforced, etc. How control structures with the faith worked. In this Ex-Mormons and Ex-JWs often find common ground.

I doubt any believing member would find anything more the most superficial commonality between the faiths. Instead, if they did gaze over the fence it would be to laugh at how silly the other faith is in one regard or the other.

I believe almost no one on the outside can convince a believing member they are part of a faith the lacks a factual basis. Instead, something happens within the faith, that causes the member to question. Only then do such folks begin to take seriously what critics of the faith are saying.

"But what is death?"

The opposite of life.

"It's a separation. Spiritual death is a separation of man and God."

There is no evidence of this apart from a statement of belief.

"As for Ecclesiastes, it's clearly a philosophic book and not an eschatological book."

Says, who? Eccleiastes is part of the inspired word of God and truthful in all it's plain statements of fact!

I am of course being sarcastic, since again, either view amounts to a statement of belief. All we can say for certain is Ecclesiastes is an ancient book written in Hebrew that became part of the Bible canon. The writer certainly does seem to focus on the vanity of life, but I don't think there is any reason to believe he was merely being philosophical when he said the dead "know not anything." Rather, in context the writer is reflecting on the value of being alive in constrast to being dead. As he said, a live dog is better than a dead lion.

"And the apostles asked Jesus, "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" (John 9:2) How could that man sin before his birth if he did not exist? Jesus made no attempt to correct them."

Hmm... I don't think the account demands that conclusion. The answer Jesus is said to have given here is this: "Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

The parents were of course alive while the child was in the womb, so they could have "sinned" then. Likewise, it may have been the belief of Jews then, that an unborn child could "sin" while in the womb. In any case Jesus said neither had sinned.

But, there is little point for me to go into great detail on these points. I don't believe in God or that Jesus was anything more than a man who long ago died along with everyone else in his time period. Likewise, I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses have the "truth", so all I can do is share what I know about the faith, but I have no interest in defending their doctrines.

"You're also correct that death ends animated life. If you've ever lost a family member or friend, or if you've ever had an animal as a pet, once dead, the body looks different. It's clearly a shell in which the spirit, an eternal being, resides."

Again, this is just an assertive statement of belief. To say the body "looks different" is obvious enough, why would we expect any different, given the physical actions of respiration have ended?

"Injustice? How? The Lord has stated that children who die return to the Lord and will inherit eternal life, without the necessity of going through the pain and suffering of human life."

Hmm..., okay...

"I wish I could have died that young, though if I had, I don't think I would have appreciated death and a return to God as much."

I'm trying to imagine how the parent of the 5-year-old would react if you told them, no injustice had befallen them and in fact you wish you could have died at that age too. Not to be too hash, but this is just contempt for life now, we know we have. All such talk of after-life is, at best, wishful thinking. Jehovah's Witnesses routinely talk about the wonders of paradise earth without seemingly giving a thought to the genocide that must proceed it.

"On the other hand, many of those who live selfish, hedonistic lifestyles or reject the existence of God experience fear and for that reason refuse to move on."

What though of atheists who are not selfish and hedonistic? Who have not so much "rejected the existence of God" but instead accepted life for what it really is? Could it be they neither live in fear and have "moved on" from superstitious belief, that is?

"Indeed they do [claim ordination as ministers]. But from whence do they get their authority?"

The same place as any who make such claims. It is a faith claim. Each particular faith dictates these rules -- that is their proragative. Saying they aren't ordained, but I am, because of this or that, is, again just another statement of belief.

"They may surmise such, but do the JW Governing Body members see visions, have angelic ministrations?"

Jehovah's Witnesses do not make such claims, but again, they would view with suspicious any who do. In any regards Latter-day Saints are not alone in these claims. TV Evangelist Oral Roberts claimed to have several visions, including one in 1977 from a 900-foot-tall Jesus who told him to build City of Faith Medical and Research Center (see Wikipedia for more details).

Cheers,
-Randy