Posts by rawe

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

"Lazarus was reportedly resurrected after being four days in the tomb, hence is not an ordinary event, but most spectacular display of power, and was the grand finale of miracles; yet why did all three gospel accounts which were written earlier did not know of this great event, but found only in the Gospel of John written towards 96-98 AD?"

The resurrection of Lazarus is interesting. It is as you say, only recorded in John, a very late and different Gospel. A few bits of John strike me as attempt to answer likely objections to other accounts in circulation. When Jesus mentions the signal of "dipping the morsel" and giving it to Judas it is John that tells us about the "leaning back" (John 13:25 vs Matthew 26:23, Mark 14:20, Luke 22:23), thus answering the question of why Judas was not tipped off.

One could argue that the resurrection of Lazarus was so well known during the eyewitness period it didn't need to be written down. That seems unlikely, considering that Luke says he had traced "all" things, it would be rather hard to justify leaving this out of the story.

The story of Lazarus seems to serve a couple purposes. It certainly could answer any objection that earlier accounts of ressurections involved people that weren't really dead. I would also suggest, as time marched on, there would be growing concern in the community of believers about the return of Jesus, the fate of those who already had died and their own life coming to an end. Not at all unlike the feelings some long time members of our former faith, who hoped all their lives for a get-out-of-jail-free card in regards to death.

You'll notice, in the account Jesus intentionally delays (John 11:6) to the point Lazarus dies.

Cheers,

-Randy

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi mP,

"Even Paul knows nothing about Jesus the man. scan thru all his writings and write down the facts you learn about jesus."

It is amazing that one can spead a life time reading the Bible and not see obvious details like this. Only after I left the faith for several years, did I finally watch the documentary The God Who Wasn't There, by Brian Flemming, wherein I saw this point made for the first time.

Since then I have thought about this argument. I will say it is interesting and is something that could support the notion that Jesus never really existed. However, I think there are a couple reasonable ways of explaining this issue. Paul generally wrote letters to congregations of believers, who would already know the back story of Jesus. As a writer, his style does not seem to be one of historical reflection, but instead on knowledge of God wrapped in the Christ (Col 2:3).

Paul is introduced to us in Acts, which is really a continuation of Luke, that is of course one of the gospels that has the life story of Jesus.

Finally, I would think that a need for a written narrative of the life of Jesus would grow as the eyewitness period was ending. This, could be the reason why the first Christian writings are Paul's letters, followed by the 3 gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke).

Cheers,

-Randy

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Cassuk11,

Thanks for directly answering my questions, I appreciate that. The key difference between our views of course is I don't hold one source of written information in a special place above all others. However, as James said, "You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18). Whatever our 'faith' might be, we want what we do, our 'works', to be good.

Good luck on your journey!

Cheers,

-Randy

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi Vanderhoven7,

"The fact that some of the Gentiles in Corinth did not subscribe to the (general) resurrection of the body does not reflect upon the actual testimony of the apostles or the 500 who attested to having witnessed Christ's post-resurrection appearances in and around Jerusalem. . . . But, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, their error reflects only on themselves."

Unfortunately Paul does not elaborate in 1 Cor 15 who the "some" were. Perhaps, they were Christian leaders in Corinth who preached an anti-resurrection message. Certainly we know Paul talked about "super-fine apostles" he disagreed with elsewhere. To be exact, we can't say we have the testimony of " more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters " (verse 2). Instead what we must say is the author of Corinthians, who we generally agree was Paul, was making this claim.

Eyewitness testimony itself can be problematic. The shocking and sudden demise of Jesus could have had a profound impact on the community of believers. A small assembly of 500 listening to someone speak of Jesus message could over time easily has transformed into a story of him really being there. Certainly we know religious folks with sufficient motivation give questionable testimony -- otherwise we would be compelled to conclude people near Joseph Smith really saw and handled the gold plates.

Nonetheless, I do give some weight to this aspect of Paul's argument. But from there he goes downhill rather quickly...

" If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. " (1 Cor 15:13, 14)

Here Paul is basically arguing that resurrection of Christ happened, because such is required for their preaching and faith. Such circular reasoning weakens his argument. Finally Paul concludes with these words...

Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” [ e ] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame. (1 Cor 15:33, 34)

This is not the sign of good argument! To suggest belief depends, not on evidence, but rather avoding "bad company" and tied up in "sin" and "shame" is not impressive.

These are my views of course, and you likely would put weight on different aspects of the account. That's the personal challenge to parse through this material and various viewpoints in an effort to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Cheers,

-Randy

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Cassuk11,

"I would encourage you to ente rinto the spitiual arrangement not made by human hands.In there you will see your saviour he will reveal himself to you"

Fair enough. However, your language here is highly abstract. You need to be more specific for this invitation to make any sense to me. Likewise, I would need to know how the "saviour" would "reveal himself" to judge what this means.

Without being too personal, can you help me understand a bit more about yourself. You seem to be a believer in Jesus as a living personal saviour, yet against organized religion, is that correct? Do you associate with any group then? Are you a former member of Jehovah's Witnesses? What is your view of the Bible, that is the widely circulated Protestant canon from Genesis to Revelation? What view do you hold on Genesis creation account? What is your view of the theory of evolution? How do you feel about scientific method? And finally... not to ask too many things, Occam's Razor?

Knowing your views on these items will help me better address your invitation above.

Cheers,

-Randy

ps. You may have already answered some of these question -- I must confess that I have not read each post in this thread.

pps. My answer to the question above are: (a) I am not a member of any religious organization, (b) I am a member of PAMG (Phoenix Atheist Meetup Group), but don't meet with them that often. I am the organizer of the Chandler, Ex-JW meetup group. (c) I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses most of my life, baptized in 1981, left the faith in 2007. (d) I view the Bible as a remarkable book, continue to regularily read it, but don't believe it has non-human origins. (e) I see the creation account of Genesis as remarkably uninformed about the history of life on earth. (f) I accept the theory of evolution as the best explanation of how life on earth changes over time and is all related. (g) I see the scientific method as one of the most remarkable breakthrough tools in the discovery of objective truth. (h) I think Occam's Razor has proven a great tool in selecting the correct choice when faced with two or more explanations.

76

Thoughts on Jesus' Resurrection

by Perry in

i think that in our various discussions about life after the wt, we many times forget about the cornerstone of christian life - the resurrection.

the implications of the existence a man who holds the power of life and death is manifold.

it makes discussions about the existence of god obsolete.. for all of scientists' accomplishments they have never been able to make even one amobea come alive from non-life.

rawe

Hi Perry,

"A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6 . He states that most of these men and women were still alive when he wrote this letter, about 55 A.D."

Since leaving the faith, I see 1 Cor 15 in almost the exact opposite way a believer does. At verse 12, Paul says this:

" But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? "

Isn't that odd? If the resurrection of Jesus was so well known and such a cornerstone of Christian faith, why would "some" say there is no resurrection? Paul is addressing, not oppossers but, believer in Corinth. There is no question, Paul punches hard on the point in this chapter, but it now strikes me as he doth protest too much.

Cheers,

-Randy

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Xanthippe,

"I loved God and Jesus and I sacrificed my life to pioneer but when I realised that way of life was rubbish where were THEY?"

Thanks for post this! My skeptisim built over many years, 1995 until I left in 2007[1]. Your post reminded me that many in the faith take it seriously and have the kind of faith Cassuk11 describes. One would also think it would be reasonable that Jesus would reward such faith, even if was mistaken, once a person left. Alas, for many, such as yourself it doesn't work out that way.

Cheers,

-Randy

[1] I did love the faith and was deeply involved along with my family. Although I often aux-pioneerd I never was a pioneer. I do think now I subconsciously limited my mental engagement and did things (saved for retirement, stressed the need for post-secondary education for my girls, never stressed the big A, etc) that limited the burn when we did eventually leave.

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Jam,

"For the life of me I can't understand why intelligent people believe the stories in the bible. How can theologians who knows the bible and have read it several times still believe it to be 100% truth. What is it that I am missing."

As per the theory of evolution our brains are adapted not so much as truth detectors, but instead for our survival. Since humans survive in groups and are very social there is a great deal pressure to accept what the group believes as true. In this regard I find how science attempts to uncover objective truth very telling. For example, the very idea that hypothesis can be considered "scientific" only if there is some way it can be clearly proven wrong. Then the hypothesis only attains the elevated status of a theory only after rigorous attempts to kill the hypothesis have failed.

Thus it genuinely can be difficult to parse truth from complete nonsense when articulate adult leaders of a community insist the nonsense is real.

What I now find interesting about the Bible in addtion to the direct things you mention (the Adam and Eve story, the Jonan story, the Baalam story, etc), but a some of the more subtle patterns. One pattern in particular strikes me rather strongly, and that is the scope of the stories involving miracles changes over time. The story of Noah is world wide. The story of Moses involves all of Egypt. By the time of Jesus all the miracles shrink in scope and involve only a few people in the area directly around Jesus.

There is a simple and obvious reason for this -- to make unbelievable stories, beliavable, setting is important and a key is making the setting just out of reach. The bigger the story the more remote and distant the setting must be. Thus, Star Wars, opens with "A long time ago and in galaxy far far away..."

Cheers,

-Randy

107

WHy Have You Turned YOur Back On The Messiah

by cassuk11 in

ok so you got out of the watchtower society after discerning it was false.

what is amazing is how many have turned their back on the king or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock.

jesus the christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions.

rawe

Hi Cassuk11,

"Ok so you got out of The Watchtower Society after discerning it was false."

Much depends on what one finds is false. For me it was a couple things, the first being the impossibility of the flood account in the Bible being literally true. The second was the dishonest way the theory of evolution was treated in the publications.

"What is amazing is how many have turned their back on the King or was it they had no faith in the first place and the spiritual food they received did not help them stand upon a rock."

There is little question Jehovah's Witnesses miss the essence of Christianity -- namely the focus on Jesus as the Christ. How many Witnesses even know that "Jehovah" never appeared in NT writing? So, I can see how one who leaves the Witness faith could do so once discovering this disconnect between what is presented as Christianity in NT vs Jehovah's Witnesses focus on -- "Jehovah" and obedience to an organization.

"Jesus the Christ your saviour is a living breathing being with emotions. He want usto ge tto know him ,to follow him, to call upon him in days of trouble, .He want us to be part of the true churhc, a one not made by human handes."

I simply don't see any evidence such incredible claims are true. Rather Jesus, like all other humans of his day, are now dead. The presentation of his death on a cross at the hands of the Romans could very well be true. That Christainity, growing up outside the middle of Jewish system, from which it sprang and not being very connected to physical things like a temple, I can easily see how such a belief system would focus on the spirtual, i.e. things, "not made with human hands."

"Peace and Love"

Amen! I believe the healthiest forms of faith stress peace and love and are ones that are personal. They don't focus on an organization, especially where one is not to question the leader. Without a doubt, your love of Jesus and his message comes across. I am sure it can be frustrating to think, Ex-Witnesses, who are now atheists such as myself, have somehow been ruined by our former faith, or as you suggest, never had faith to begin with. However, I don't think that is the correct way to think about it. For me, leaving the faith, was turning my back, not on Jesus, but on falsehood.

Cheers,

-Randy