Just a quick reminder... If you can come out and support this year's Shun Run please do.
The walk will start at 10am in Papago Park, Tempe, AZ tomorrow, Saturday, April 12th. We will take a group photo behind our banner. Any who don't want to be in a public photo can decline. The combined Chandler/West-Phoenix meetup will be at the Phoenix Public Library main branch (Burton Barr) on the 4th floor at 2:00pm. We will have several speak and share their experience and perspective about leaving the faith.
The theme for this year is "Show Courage, Don't Shun." It takes courage to leave, it takes courage for those who remain in the faith not to shun and it takes courage to come out to a public event like this. We salute such courage!
A day or two after the event I will post pictures Ex-JW recovery forum on Yuku. I have a FB account, but I don't post much about JWs there, for the sake of my mother-in-law and others who remain the faith.
Really looking forward to seeing everyone!
Cheers,
-Randy
Posts by rawe
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Shun Run 2014: Final Booster
by rawe injust a quick reminder... if you can come out and support this year's shun run please do.. .
the walk will start at 10am in papago park, tempe, az tomorrow, saturday, april 12th.
we will take a group photo behind our banner.
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rawe
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Updates on 2014 Shun Run
by rawe inour plans for this year's shun run continues.
if you are in the phoenix area on saturday, april 12th consider coming out to papago park at 10am.
we will walk 2.3 miles.
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rawe
Hi cultBgone,
We would love to have you! If you can make it out, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
Hi Quendi,
Some have suggested that in past years. It does take a bit of organizing and to get even modest support you'll likely need to be in an area where there are a fair number of ex-JWs. If someone wanted to organize a Shun Run in their local area, I don't mind sharing the details of what I do -- although it really isn't much more than you see what I report here.
Hi Band on the Run,
Thanks! The event is low-key. If one or two even notice the group in Papago Park that would be about it. Instead it is more about those who come out -- giving them an opportunity to be with a larger group of Ex-JWs. One of the members from the West group asked if it would be okay to contact "3 on Your Side" (our local channel 3). I said sure, it is a public event and we would be happy to respond to any interest. However, it is not something I have actively sought. In fact, the truth is, I would be probably need to overcome nervousness to handle that aspect of the event.
The very first year we did the event (there were 9 of us) we ran around the Casa Grande Assembly Hall on a Sunday. I did not think it would be in use, since it was the Sunday before the memorial. But the Spanish group were using it. So, I got up the courage and approached the attendants to tell them what my plans were (I had also written them beforehand). Anyway they called the Pinal County Sherrif! That was a bit unnerving! But it all worked out and was even a bit fun watching the attendants try to be coy and casual watching us as we ran by.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Updates on 2014 Shun Run
by rawe inour plans for this year's shun run continues.
if you are in the phoenix area on saturday, april 12th consider coming out to papago park at 10am.
we will walk 2.3 miles.
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rawe
Hi Everyone,
Our plans for this year's Shun Run continues. If you are in the Phoenix area on Saturday, April 12th consider coming out to Papago Park at 10am. We will walk 2.3 miles. Later we will meet at the Phoenix Public Library at 2:00pm. The Witnesses sometimes have their table at library, so if you do see them and decide to interact, please be polite. There will be a sign inside the library directing you to the 4th floor where our meetup will be held.
Our Shun Run is not so much a protest as an opportunity for us to get together and be of encouragement. What we're asking Jehovah's Witnesses to do, most would consider a basic human right -- the right to leave a faith one no longer agrees with without facing reprisals for doing so.
As part of this event I send a letter to 24 different groups and inviduals asking them to speak out against organizational induced shunning. Hopefully some of them will!
The tag line for this year's event is "Show Courage, Don't Shun." It takes courage to leave the faith, it takes courage to post here, it takes courage for some in the faith to decide not to obey instructions to shun and of course it takes courage to come out and support a public event. Such courage is to be celebrated!
Cheers,
-Randy
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Shun Run 2014: Show Courage, Don't Shun
by rawe inour third annual shun run will be held again at 10am at papago park, tempe, az on saturday, april 12th.
this is a low-key public event that all who wish to see an end to organizational-induced shunning can join in.
lecture room on floor 4 at 2:00pm.. as part of this event, i write a letter to sdb:ssy, the otherwise anonymous jw author who informed me about the df'ing announcement in my case.
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rawe
Hi Doc,
To be honest I don't seek out media attention myself, but otherwise, yes, if it did happen, we would answer questions, etc. The group that gather last year, was such a great group -- any one of them would make a great representation of the truth of this situation. Just good people, who for one reason or another are no longer Witnesses, but must face shunning from family.
Hi KateWild,
We took pictures last year and I posted them to the yuku forum I bit more active on. Hope to do that again this year.
Hi Clarity,
Absolutely! It really is about being a school yard bully -- an infantile -- "if you're my friend, you can't be friends with someone else."
Thanks for the encouragement everyone!
Cheers,
-Randy
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Shun Run 2014: Show Courage, Don't Shun
by rawe inour third annual shun run will be held again at 10am at papago park, tempe, az on saturday, april 12th.
this is a low-key public event that all who wish to see an end to organizational-induced shunning can join in.
lecture room on floor 4 at 2:00pm.. as part of this event, i write a letter to sdb:ssy, the otherwise anonymous jw author who informed me about the df'ing announcement in my case.
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rawe
Hi Everyone,
This will be our third run of the event. We had 9 the first year and 20 the second. I am hoping we'll get 20 or more again. I'm a bit late in getting all the plans together, but the letter to SDB:SSY is written, the room at the library is rented, so two big items are done. The event tries to strike a balance between being a public event, yet a not-in-your-face type thing (as JWs we had been asked to do too much of that already).
I know, this is just a small bit, but it feels very good to be in the audience and have female speakers address the audience directly. Two last year were able to speak, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to line that up again.
In regards to other places, if anyone wishes to organize a "Shun Run" in their local area, I would be thrilled. If you're thinking you could do it, don't be overly concerned about the logistics, it winds up just being a hike and some place afterwards to meet and discuss.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Shun Run 2014: Show Courage, Don't Shun
by rawe inour third annual shun run will be held again at 10am at papago park, tempe, az on saturday, april 12th.
this is a low-key public event that all who wish to see an end to organizational-induced shunning can join in.
lecture room on floor 4 at 2:00pm.. as part of this event, i write a letter to sdb:ssy, the otherwise anonymous jw author who informed me about the df'ing announcement in my case.
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rawe
Hi Everyone,
Our third annual Shun Run will be held again at 10am at Papago Park, Tempe, AZ on Saturday, April 12th. This is a low-key public event that all who wish to see an end to organizational-induced shunning can join in. The walk takes about 1hr and later the afternoon we'll meet at the Phoenix Public Library. Lecture room on floor 4 at 2:00pm.
As part of this event, I write a letter to SDB:SSY, the otherwise anonymous JW author who informed me about the DF'ing announcement in my case. So far, no response, be if he ever does, I'll post the response here and on the other ex-JW form I particpate in.
Shun Run 2014
Show Courage, Don't Shun
Randy Galbraith March 2, 2014
Mr. SDB:SSY
Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses
2821 Route 22, Patterson, NY
12563-2237
Dear Mr. SDB:SSY
The Chandler Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses Meetup group along with assistance from Phoenix Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses Meetup group will be holding our third annual Shun Run event:
Saturday, April 12, 2014, 10:00am at Papago Park, Tempe, AZ
The primary purpose of these events is to help members of the Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses community cope with being shunned. It also takes courage to leave the faith. And it will take courage on behalf of the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses if they choose to end organizational induced shunning. Thus the sub-title of this year's event: Show Courage, Don't Shun. I also hope the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses themselves will one day see the wisdom in leaving the practice of organizational-induced shunning to smaller extreme groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church.
We, the shunned, are harmed as friends and family members withdraw and refuse all forms of communication. This happens, not because we have broken the “Bible's moral code” and refused to repent. For many, it is a matter of heartfelt disagreement with the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses. We left as a matter of conscience – to remain would be living a lie.
Even if the Bible's moral code were at stake in some cases, the judicial process of Jehovah's Witnesses is entirely modern and without a Biblical basis. Each year a large number of Jehovah's Witnesses face judicial committees and are disfellowshipped1 A large portion of the elders-only policy manual Shepherd The Flock of God gives directions on disfellowshipping and operating judicial committees. No such activity is spoken of in the Christian portion of the Bible. Although 1 Corinthians 5 is often cited, this is starkly different than the modern practice of disfellowshipping among Jehovah's Witnesses. Most troubling of all is the profound slander involved in invoking 1 Corinthians 5 as a comparison. Do Jehovah's Witnesses believe every case of disfellowshipping, even ones involving “sexual misconduct,” are the equivalent of the incest mentioned at 1 Corinthians 5?
What can the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses do?
#1 - End Organizational-Induced Shunning Now!
What would happen? Would the directions of 1 Corinthian 5:13 to “remove the wicked person from among yourself” be nullified? What of 2 John 1:10, 11 which says: “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.” Would such advice be ignored?
Ending organizational-induced shunning does not remove these words from the Bible. The Biblical direction remains available to all Jehovah's Witnesses. Nothing stops an individual from making a personal choice not to greet or not to welcome someone into their home. Ironically, organizational-induced shunning removes the real power from these passages. The personal choice is transferred from the individual to the organization. If John had lived in an era of organizational-induced shunning, he simply would have said, “Do not greet a disfellowshipped individual. The elders on the judicial committee have privately judged 'his wicked works', and this has been reviewed by the branch office.”
Such is the trap of forming organizational law, where conscience and principal should stand. In real life, relationships are much more nuanced. I am an atheist, yet I have family and friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses. Thankfully, a few still associate with me. Out of respect for them, once each year I also attend the Memorial at a local Kingdom Hall. On these occasions, I don't “bring” any teaching of any sort! In general, real people, in real life, do not seek to cause religious conflict when they know sincerely held, but different, views are present.
#2 - Answer The Following Question
Please explain how anyone can leave the faith without being labeled “wicked” (1 Corinthians 5:13), short of continuing year-after-year to live by some undefined subset of the rules that govern active members.2
Notice my question is different than ”Do You Shun Former Members of Your Religion?”3 Someone seeking to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses will hardly imagine one day they will break the Bible's moral code and show no repentance. Likewise, a casual visitor to jw.org may have little sympathy for someone who breaks the Bible's moral code. It is an entirely different matter to ask, “Once I join, can I leave this faith without reprisals for doing so?”
We know most Jehovah's Witnesses are sincere and honest people. Many who become Witnesses do so after first forming a friendship with their Witness teacher. The thought of what options are available if one wants to leave one day is a remote or non-existent consideration when joining. The process of coming to terms with the reality one no longer accepts the teachings of their faith is difficult enough.
100 years have now passed since 1914. Some expectations have clearly faltered. The time has come to reevaluate your relationship with your former members and those who wish to leave the faith. While no doubt it is a disappointment to see members leave, please keep in mind many are kind, decent individuals who in no way deserve to be labeled “wicked.”
The shunned are not the only ones harmed by this process. Your members do not deserve to be put under the mental strain of being asked to consider former members who are friends and family “wicked” when they clearly are not. Likewise, elders who volunteer their time should not be asked to interrogate an 18-year-old girl in regards to the extent the behavior with her fiancée was sexual and immoral. Nor should they feel compelled to disfellowship knowing dire consequences might follow. The existence of an internal judicial process to “keep the congregation clean” implies all current members can be implicitly trusted. Yet cases of pedophilia have shown this it not always true.4 No doubt, many Jehovah's Witnesses would be unhappy to learn their donations are used to pay for settlements in such cases.
All such harm is unnecessary and non-Biblical in any regard. The time has come for Jehovah's Witnesses to discard organizational-induced shunning and allow conscience to rule in such serious matters. It is my sincere hope to see this happen.
Yours sincerely,
Randy Galbraith
1For every 100 Jehovah's Witnesses more than 1 is disfellowshipped each year; over 70,000.(1) Two out of every three are never reinstated. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php. jwfacts.com is an informational site run by former member Paul Grundy.
2I have asked this question, four times before: on June 30, 2010, on January 15, 2011, on February 4, 2012 and again on November 20, 2012. It still remains unanswered.
3http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/
4The New York Times - Jehovah’s Witnesses Told to Pay in Abuse Case: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/us/28-million-awarded-in-jehovahs-witnesses-abuse-case.html?_r=0
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170
Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom
by TJ Curioso inlaunch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.
link.
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rawe
Hi Simon,
"Again, a false analogy. If they make a false public statement then yes, you could take them to court for it. It would be an individual case-by-case issue. The fact they are subtle and use coded language simply makes it difficult if not impossible to do. Yes, they are morally low but the government is not going to arrive like batman and make things 'right'."
An obvious first defense against a charge of slander or libel is the truth test. Basically, what is said in the disfellowshipping announcement would pass the truth test. Since the faith gets to define who is and who is not a member, a simple benign announcement that "So-and-so" is no longer a member would pass the truth test. But, I chose my wording of the more direct and dramatic slander, because it follows closely the model Witnesses cite for their Biblical justification -- namely 1 Cor 5. I would argue that the analogy is far from false. Not only do Witnesses publish the fact they use 1 Cor 5, but the obvious effect of the announcement is clear.
But there is another aspect of the true/false question. Can one be the subject of slander, libel or invasion of privacy, if the public statement is a truthful one? The case of the gay teen shows courts will consider the impact of even a truthful statement and rule in favor of privacy. For example, if someone where to say, "So-and-so has HIV/AIDS" they may not be able to defend that on the basis of truth -- because invasion of privacy is involved.
"How" is indeed the question. Because we wish to avoid unintended consequences, in cases like this we let obvious harm and abuse of free speech to go forward unchecked. In the Janice Paul case, the court directly acknowledged the harm she had experienced.
Also, I've noticed a couple things as of late. On jw.org the defense of their shunning policy does not reference 1 Cor 5, nor "sins" like stealing and adultery. Rather a vague reference to the Bible's "moral code" is offered.
Cheers,
-Randy
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170
Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom
by TJ Curioso inlaunch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.
link.
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rawe
Hi Simon,
"Think about it - there are very few situations where anyone is forcibly compelled to talk to someone else."
Indeed that would be awful!
However, I don't see that is the main issue with disfellowshipping. How should we feel, if Jehovah's Witnesses made the following public announcement: "So-and-so is an unrepentant wicked sexual pervert and should be strictly avoided?" Would that qualify as slander or should it be protected under freedom speech and freedom of religion? Should one's private religious views be the subject of public comment (even indirectly) by Witnesses? While the announcement Jehovah's Witnesses is benign, we know it is a coded message for what I said more directly. We also know the character of the individual is harmed the moment that announcement is made.
Freedom of speech and freedom of religion are poweful concepts that are entrenched in both the constitution of Canada and USA. And rightly so, and thank goodness -- where would be on this forum if that were not so? Yet tests of the limits of how far religious leaders can use rhetoric to bring harm to individuals or classes of individuals do make it to court. The Janice Paul case being the latest one I'm aware of in the USA involving the Witnesses. More recently the Westboro Baptist Church has had their day in court (and won) regarding protesting military funerals.
When police threated to out a young gay teen, the court ruled for the right of privacy over freedom of speech for the police.
Personally, I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses should be free to slander former members in the way they do -- but at the same time -- any cure I fear would be worse than the disease. Thus, in this case I probably won't sign the petition. Rather, I'll petition Jehovah's Witnesses directly, as I do each year, as part of the Shun Run. Asking them, respectfully, to discard these policies that bring so many, both members and non-members, harm.
Cheers,
-Randy
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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rawe
Hi Cofty,
Very good set of responses!
To add your list of God problems, to me one of the biggest, is if God exists, has the ability to violate laws of nature without detection, and does so to work out his own purpose, then, knowledge about anything, even in principal, is impossible. Of course the darker side of the existence of God is not theological at all, but rather that it affords some not-so-nice individuals and groups to hold superstitious control over others.
If I ever get over the pond again (been once), we'll need to get out and discuss this over a beer!
Cheers,
-Randy
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Ever consider joining The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
by rawe inhas anyone here left jehovah's witnesses to join the churuch of jesus christ of latter-day saints?
what was your motivation for doing so and how has it worked out?.
if you haven't joined the lds or considered it, as an ex-jw, what is your general view of the lds faith?.
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rawe
Hi Cold Steel,
"Okay, that sounds reasonable. The greatest demonstrable point would be old world geography. This includes evidence for the first book of Nephi, so you don't have to read a great deal of the Book of Mormon. But first we'd have to agree that if someone were going to write a fictional account about an area of the world and a historic period in which very little was known (even amongst scholars) regarding the middle-eastern area, including the deserts of Arabia, the established trails and culture, writing directions that anyone with Nephi's account, a compass and a means of desert travel could follow, then having every detail of the entire journey check out with Ø errors -- that that would be an impossible achievement, even with the best maps of the day."
Okay. It has been awhile, since I've read the Book of Mormon, but I'll start at 1 Nephi and make some comments as I go along. In general one the first things that strike a skeptical reader is the author of the Book of Mormon is anxious to get his character out of middle east and over to the Americas. Leaving them in the middle east wouldn't be a great idea, for a couple reasons. First, the writer would be bound to wind up creating conflicts in the account with the Bible. Second the whole purpose of the Book of Mormon is to create a story about happenings in the Americas.
1 Nephi 2:8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.
As far as I'm aware no rivers empty in the Red Sea, either today or in the time setting for the Book fo Mormon. Please provide references to correct me on this.
If the Book of Mormon is a product of the 1830s, one of the things you would expect is characters in the Book of Mormon would know about Bible characters, but the opposite would be impossible. Indeed that is just what you find. For example...
1 Nephi 7:14 For behold, the a Spirit of the Lord b ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have c rejected the prophets, and d Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the e life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land
Mentions specific detail about Jeremiah, which of course would not be difficult. Yet, God works a miracle for Lehi here too...
1 Nephi 7:18 And it came to pass that when I had said these words, behold, the bands were loosed from off my hands and feet, and I stood before my brethren, and I spake unto them again.
Yet, the character of Lehi, although getting the attention of God in this way, doesn't seem to result in any mention in the Bible.
1 Nephi 8:8 And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the Lord that he would have a mercy on me, according to the multitude of his tender mercies.
A Hebrew charachter speaking in the first person using the word "hours" is very odd. You won't find OT characters doing that.
1 Nephi 11:13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of a Nazareth I beheld a b virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
A reference to "city of Nazareth" seems incorrect to me. I would need to do more research on this point to be sure. Of course, it might be possible to rescue this verse by reference to its presentation as prophesy.
I'll stop at chapter 12. If you're thinking of some specific reference, please reference to chapter and verse. So far, nearly all references, are fairly vague or easily known information from the Bible. Jerusalem, Zedekiah, Red Sea all these items are of course mentioned in the Bible and would be available to a Book of Mormon author in the 1830s.
Cheers,
-Randy