Posts by james46888

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

james46888

"I think it is helpful to look at sheol in broader context. You quote two verses which don't mention torment or give us any kind of a picture similar to that found in Luke 16."

Job 26:5 says that the shades in sheol "tremble" or, as in other versions, "writhe" (maybe you're using a different translation to me), so clearly something unpleasant is in view. Isaiah 14 talks about them becoming weak. The word "rephaim" used there in Isa 14, has, its parallel in Ugaritic texts where, in the opinion of the majority of scholars, it refers to the spirits of the dead.

"Here is what I have found in my studies concerning Sheol.FACTS THAT BECOME APPARENT ABOUT SHEOl: Sheol is located downward in the dust of the earth. (Job 17:13-16) Both the good and the bad go to Sheol.Jacob and his sons go to Sheol. (Gen.42:38)David planned to rest in Sheol. (Ps.16:9-10)David desired his enemies also go down to Sheol, not in peace, butin blood. (I Kings 2:6,9)By going to Sheol, Job misses God's wrath. Job actually asks to behidden in Sheol to escape God's anger. (Job 14:13) The terms death, the grave, and destruction are so closely bound as to be often interchangeable in the text (Pr.15:11, 24; 27:20)."

No problem with the above. Job 14:13 was, as you may recall, one of the passages I myself cited in order to show those believers in sheol back then were in a state of non-punishment.

"Figurative language is often associated with Sheol.Beds are made In Sheol. Maggots are spread beneath the dead and worms cover them like a blanket. (Is.14:11)Sheol is even personified.It is pictured as snatching sinners and robbing people of theirremaining years. (Job 24:19);Sheol has an appetite. It opens its mouth without limit.It is never satisfied. (Pr.27:20) Sheol is naked before God."

Yes, sheol is personified in Scripture but that does not prove in anyway that it is not a literal place for departed spirits.

"Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits. i.e. ruling"

Yes, satire is used but again this does not show it's not a literal picture. Figurative language is used here and there ("thrones" etc) but again this does not prove the whole picture is figurative.

"MOST IMPORTANT: God will redeem souls from Sheol's power. (Ps.49:15)"

Agree but fail to see this proves the doctrine of soul-sleep.

"Sheol will not have the last word. Sheol is going to be plagued and death is going to be destroyed! (Hos.13:14 KJV)"

Agreed but, again, fail to see it proves your point.

"Sheol is not eternal therefore, but temporary."

Agree, I don't know any informed Christian who feels it isn't.

"not too much goes on in Sheol.There is no wisdom or knowledge there and no activity or work forthose who go down to silence. (Eccl.9:10 Ps.6:5 Ps. 31:17)No person praises God from Sheol (Ps.6:5; 88:10-12)"

You have to take into account the wider context of the book of Ecclesiates. The answer to that generally explains the other passages you cite too. I would go into more detail but in your last response you didn't deal with some of the points I raised about Luke 16 in rebuttal to yourself, so I think it'd be more fair if you did that first.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

james46888

"Thanks for answering my questions"
No problem :)

"Do you have a verse or two to support this?"

Well, you yourself cited some verses showing that both believers and unbelievers would go to sheol at death, but we know some verse describe sheol in not so nice terms (Job 26:5; Isaiah 14 being just two), so we infer from this that unbelievers experience punishment there, whereas believers naturally would not experience this (Job 14:13; Psalm 73:24; the "translation" of Enoch & Elijah et al).

Vander: How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?
James: "Faith/repentance towards God."
Vander: Which verse in the account supports this?

Answer: Remember we should take into account and not lose sight of the wider view of Scripture which indeed does state that repentance saves one from punishment. Therefore, it would not actually matter if it was not mentioned in the story, particularly in a high-context society. However, that said, verse 29 mentions that the rich man's brothers (like himself) had failed to listen to the prophets, which shows their lack of belief and unrepentance (verse 30).

Vander: Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?
James: "Lack of the above"
Vander: That's not the reason Abraham gives. The only reasoning is: Good now, bad later.

Answer: But why is he "bad" now?. What do the Scriptures as a whole tell us about faith producing works? You can't read "out" (as opposed to "reading in") what the rest of the Bible says and isolate Luke 16 from the wider context. Again verses 29-30 are key, since they deal with why his brothers will go there to join him.

Vander: Didn't he demonstrate genuine moral concern for his lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?
James: "Maybe, but I don't see why that means he escapes punishment."
Vander: Punishment for what?

Answer: Sin, unrepentance.

Vander:Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water if it would not even begin to cool his tongue?
James: Knowing it would be too much to be asked to be set free completely, he asked for the solace of one drop of water.
Vander: Can't legitimately get into the rich man's head....but one drop would certainly not bring solace of any kind.

Answer: Really? How do we know the extent of his pain (if taken as a literal picture)?. He was asking for a slight decrease in pain because he knew it'd be foolish to ask for more than that.

Vander:Does that mean that those in hell catch the attention of and converse with those in heaven?
James: No, both the rich man and Abraham were in sheol.
Vander: Excellent. So are you saying that the people CURRENTLY in the bad side of hell can communicate with those on the other side?

Answer: No, because believers who die no longer go to sheol but, rather, to heaven.

Vander:OK, could hell be an enjoyable place for the righteous as they see and hear the cries of the tormented?

Answer: Well, as I say, believers are not in sheol anymore (it changed at the resurrection of Jesus), so it be better if you phrased it in the past-tense by saying, "Did those righteous in sheol have happiness even though they could hear the cries of the damned?" Answer: Remember at our death we have the mind of Christ in full operation (no longer hindered by the "flesh") and thus we see things as God does, so maybe it won't affect our enjoyment. Also, as JP Holding says in response to soul-sleep advocate Samuel Bacchiocchi when offering a similar objection: "Other than that Bacchiocchi has an emotional objection about how we could not be happy in heaven if we could see people tormented in hell, but that's rather off base from Jewish perceptions and amounts to anachronizing his modern individualism on the text."

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

james46888

"- Where did the designation "Abraham's Bosom" and thetorments associated with hades originate if they cannotbe found in the Hebrew scriptures?"

The term is not in the OT, but the concept is.
"- How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?"

Faith/repentance towards God.

"- Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?"
Lack of the above

"Didn't he demonstrate genuine moral concern forhis lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?"
Maybe, but I don't see why that means he escapes punishment.

"- Don't both the good and the bad go to hell (hades/sheol)and if so, why didn't Lazarus go there? (Or did he?)Gen.42:38 Ps.16:9-10 Job !4:13 Acts 2:26,27"

Yes they do, and Lazarus did go there.

"- Did the rich man really lift up his literal eyes in hell andwas his literal tongue parched by literal flames?"

I'd lean toward saying "yes" but even if taken non-literally, the story still shows that the unbelieving experience punishment in the next life.

"- Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water ifit would not even begin to cool his tongue?"

Knowing it would be too much to be asked to be set free completely, he asked for the solace of one drop of water

"- Did the rich man actually see and plead with literal Abraham?"
Yes.
"-Does that mean that those in hell catch the attention of andconverse with those in heaven?"
No, both the rich man and Abraham were in sheol

"- Could heaven be an enjoyable place if this account representswhat literally happens in the afterlife?"
See answer to last question
"- What do you think the point of this passage might be if itis a literal story?"
Reversal of fortune in next life; riches don't save.

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

james46888

"The results can be found at:

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/bible/hell-traditionalist-vs.-conditionalist-views.html"

Randy - Yeah, actually your website (thought your picture looked familiar) was one of the first one's I went to when I first started witnessing to JW's some 4 1/2 years ago now. It was great help. The first group of JW's I met back then carried on a weekly study with me for almost 18-months (we went through every page of the book 'What does the Bible really teach?'). Then, in early 2009, another JW came to my door and I've been conversing with him on weekly basis until now. No success though (well, at least not that I know of - maybe they have doubts because of some of the stuff I've pointed out to them about their teachings but they are just scared to admit them to my face)

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

james46888

"He preached the same parables as the Pharisees, his doctrinal mentors. Read the thread on hell on here. The Watchtower's history is a big lie."

Sorry Randy, I didn't read your post properly before I posted my own thoughts. Seems you were making a similar point to my own :)

169

Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding in

i have never understood the watchtower's explanation of the rich man and lazarus story jesus told in luke 16. of course, they don't believe jesus is talking about what happens in an "afterlife" after people die.. but from the watchtower's point of view:.

1. who are the five brothers?.

2. why can't lazarus go witness to them?

james46888

The parallels between Luke 16 and the Jewish literature of the time also should not be overlooked of course (1 Enoch 22 to cite one example)

16

Who does the H. Spirit indwell according to the Watchtower?

by james46888 in

i've spoken with a number of jw's in the past who have told me that they believe the h. spirit only indwells the 144,000 (obviously contradicted by romans 8:8-9).

however, the jw i am presently trying to convert caught me a little off guard by telling me he was unaware of this doctrine (he's been a jw for 40-years) and that he understood it to be that all believers are indwelt by the h. spirit.

is he simply misinformed about his own organisations teachings here?

james46888

"What is meant by baptism into Christ Jesus and baptism into his death? When Jehovah anoints followers of Christ with the holy spirit, they are united with Jesus and become members of the congregation that is the body of Christ, he being the Head. (1 Cor. 12:12, 13, 27; Col. 1:18)"

Thanks, I'll have to show him this quote, since it seems very clear from this that they believe entrance into the body comes through Spirit baptism, and yet elsewhere they state that Spirit baptism is only for the 144,000, thereby leaving out the great crowd from the Body.

"Anointed Christians are also "baptized into [Christ's] death" in that they live a life of sacrifice"

This statement of their's would seem to be a big problem in light of Romans 6 where it notes that those who have died (obviously, contextually it's not speaking about physical death when it talks of dying and being crucified with Christ) are freed from sin. Using JW "logic," this passage would seem to suggest that those who haven't been baptised into His death are not freed from sin, and since in their view only the anointed are baptised into His death, then this would mean - again, using their own interpretation against them - that the great crowd have not been freed from sin.

Thanks again :)

16

Who does the H. Spirit indwell according to the Watchtower?

by james46888 in

i've spoken with a number of jw's in the past who have told me that they believe the h. spirit only indwells the 144,000 (obviously contradicted by romans 8:8-9).

however, the jw i am presently trying to convert caught me a little off guard by telling me he was unaware of this doctrine (he's been a jw for 40-years) and that he understood it to be that all believers are indwelt by the h. spirit.

is he simply misinformed about his own organisations teachings here?

james46888

"Par 2: However, is there any difference between being baptized with holy spirit and being baptized in the name of the holy spirit? Yes. Those who are baptized with holy spirit are born again as spirit-begotten sons of God. They are anointed . . . part of the spiritual body of Christ."

Thanks to everyone who has helped provide me with all these quotes. I really appreciate the help :). Concerning the above, I guess I'll have to re-show my JW friend Romans 8:8-9 and compare it with 1 John 2:27, which seems to show that "anointing" equates with indwelling.

Also, when it says that the anointed are "part" of the body of Christ, does this mean they believe that the body of Christ is the 144,000 and that the great crowd are not part of the Body?. I ask becase the JW I am talking to claimed that all Christians are part of the body, not just the 144,000.

16

Who does the H. Spirit indwell according to the Watchtower?

by james46888 in

i've spoken with a number of jw's in the past who have told me that they believe the h. spirit only indwells the 144,000 (obviously contradicted by romans 8:8-9).

however, the jw i am presently trying to convert caught me a little off guard by telling me he was unaware of this doctrine (he's been a jw for 40-years) and that he understood it to be that all believers are indwelt by the h. spirit.

is he simply misinformed about his own organisations teachings here?

james46888

I've spoken with a number of JW's in the past who have told me that they believe the H. Spirit only indwells the 144,000 (obviously contradicted by Romans 8:8-9). However, the JW I am presently trying to convert caught me a little off guard by telling me he was unaware of this doctrine (he's been a JW for 40-years) and that he understood it to be that all believers are indwelt by the H. Spirit. Is he simply misinformed about his own organisations teachings here? Does anyone know what the official Watchtower position is on this issue?