Vanderhoven7

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Posts by Vanderhoven7

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  15

  Transparency Questions

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here are some questions to ask witnesses.

  how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

  transparency questions.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Nitty Gritty

  Care to pm me?
• 
  15

  Transparency Questions

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here are some questions to ask witnesses.

  how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

  transparency questions.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Concerning this generation one must ask how the Greek word "genea" is used in all four gospels. We'll just use Matthew's gospel as an example to answer the question:

  Which generation was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34?

  The Greek word “genea” (pronounced ghen-eh-ah') appears thirteen times in Matthew's gospel. Four times it is used to delineate “one set of parents to the next”. Ignoring Matthew 24:34 for the moment, in every other appearance, including 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “generation”, “this generation” (houtos genea), in context, clearly covers the same group of people -i.e. “Christ's contemporaries”

  Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

  
  

  Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

  (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

  
  

  Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ).

  
  

  Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation ." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

  
  

  Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

  
  

  Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

  Reading Mt.23:36 in context again shows " the persons then living contemporary with Christ are being referred to:
  

  
  

  29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)

  
  

  Mt 24:34

  "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

  
  

  In every gospel the combination of the definite article "houtos" with the Greek word genea invariably refers to the evil generation Christ was dealing with at the time. The 1914 generation has nothing to do the gospels and everything to do with the speculations of men in New York who shamelessly add to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  
  
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  15

  Transparency Questions

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here are some questions to ask witnesses.

  how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

  transparency questions.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi iXav

  If the GB receives new light, does that mean that the old light came from Satan or did the holy spirit gave the GB the wrong information.

  If God doesn't speak/intervene directly in human affairs today, how do you know that the GB are chosen by God?

  How can someone chosen by God and who has holy spirit still make doctrinal and organizational mistakes?

  Excellent questions! Thanks
• 
  15

  Transparency Questions

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here are some questions to ask witnesses.

  how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

  transparency questions.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @ Nitty-Gritty

  Thank you for providing answers to almost all of the questions listed in the OP.

  "Do you ever have doubts about your religion?" No

  Strange that you say this when you later express considerable doubt about some of the more fundamental teachings of your organization. e.g. 1914, 144,000, blood policies, Faithful slave.

  I do appreciate the fact that even if you lost faith in the FDS you would still believe the Bible.

  Actually, I'd like to go over a few of your answers with you...one by one if you are game. My position is that every doctrine that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses is extra-biblical. So what I am saying is that I believe that the religion of Jehovah's was never Bible-based.

  Vander

  P.S. By the way, I believe the Bible is the word of God; I have never believed in immortality of the soul and I came to faith in the fellowship of non-trinitarian brethren associated with the International Bible Student's Association.
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  15

  Transparency Questions

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here are some questions to ask witnesses.

  how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

  transparency questions.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  @Simon

  Excellent question. Goes right to the top of the list along with question number one.
• 
  15

  Transparency Questions

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here are some questions to ask witnesses.

  how would you alter or improve or add to them?.

  transparency questions.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Here are some questions to ask Witnesses. How would you alter or improve or add to them?

  TRANSPARENCY QUESTIONS

  1.How confident are you that your religion is true?

  • Do you ever have doubts about your religion?

  • Are there any issues about your religion that trouble you? Or is it all good?

  • Do you see your religion as being the only religion that God approves of?

  2. Would you say that all other religions are essentially satanic or part of Satan's kingdom?

  • Do you believe that Jehovah God rejected all other churches at some point in history?

  • When do you believe God rejected all of Christendom? What year? How do you know this?

  • What do you think will happen to people belonging to churches other than yours at if they are alive at Armageddon?

  3. Do you believe, that with rare exceptions, only faithful JWs will survive Armageddon?

  • Do you believe Jehovah will destroy billions of people at Armageddon?

  • Do you believe that the Non-Witnesses God destroys will have no hope of a resurrection?

  • What if these same Non-JWs die a few years before Armageddon...might they get a resurrection?

  • Do you think its fair that God would eternally destroy people simply based on the timing of their death?

  4. Would you say that Witnesses are free to question and even disagree with what comes down from your religion's headquarters?

  What would happen if a Witness vocalized disagreement with a particular teaching?

  What if they persisted in disagreement? Might they be disfellowshipped?

  5. To your knowledge, is there some valid or honorable way out of your religion?

  • What would be the repercussions if you left the Witnesses?

  • Would you be shunned?

  • Would you shun a family member who left your religion because they no longer believe it to be true?

  • Do you think there could be many Witnesses who no longer believe Watchtower religion to be true

    but pretend they still believe so they can keep their families intact?

  6. Do you think that your religion disfellowships and shuns people for solely biblical reasons?

  • Do you consider unrepentant celebration of birthdays to be a biblical disfellowshipping offense?

  • Do you believe unrepentant accepting of blood transfusions is a disfellowshipping offense?

  7. In a dire medical emergency would you refuse a blood transfusion that could save your child's life?

  • Would you allow some blood components to be transfused?

  • Which components does the Bible say are acceptable and which ones are not?

  • Do you know if Jehovah's Witnesses have been consistent in determining allowable components?

  • Why is plasma unacceptable when all components are individually on the WT acceptable list?

  • How about white blood cells (Leukocytes)? Do you know that millions are passed in mother's milk and

    during organ transplants which are now acceptable to the Society?

  • Do you believe it is wrong for Christians to donate blood to blood-banks? (storing blood is sinful)

  • Is storing blood temporarily for testing purposes immoral?

  • Where do Witnesses with hemophilia get their blood-clotting components from? (blood banks)

  • Is it proper or moral to benefit from immorally donated blood? Aren't JWs being parasites?

  8. If you somehow lost faith in your religion's primary leadership, would you lose your faith in God and the Bible?

  • Do you believe that your faith is primarily in God and His word? (II TIM.3:16)

  • Is it possible, without realizing it, that your faith is predominantly in men and not God or the Bible?

  • Can your leaders correct you and change your mind about what the Bible teaches?

  • Can the Bible ever correct you and change your mind contrary to what your leaders teach?

  • If I told you I only accept what a Bible scholar says the Bible teaches; would my faith ultimately be in the Bible or in the scholar?

    9. Do you believe that the gospel Jehovah's Witnesses preach is the same gospel that Paul preached?
    

  • Gal.1:6-9 NWT Would it be legitimate for Christians to preach something beyond what Paul preached?

  • Can you summarize the gospel that Jehovah's Witnesses are preaching?

  • Imagine I've got 5 minutes to live... and I ask you how can I get right with God, have my sins all

    forgiven and be granted eternal life?

  • What would Paul say to this dying person? (Acts 16:30-31, I Cor.15:1-4)

  • Do you believe that people today, can be saved or justified and have God's approval without any

    affiliation with your religious organization? (criteria)

  10. Do you believe that some of the original Great Crowd members will be alive when Armageddon strikes?

  • What year did the Great Crowd begin forming? (Not sure) Was it sometime after 1914? (Yes)

  • When did the Watchtower first realize that the great company was forming? (1935)

  • How did they discover this? Who informed the Watchtower that this group was forming?

  • If the Great Crowd started forming in 1920, how old would the youngest member be today?

  11. Do you believe that Jehovah has promised to usher in a safe and secure new world before the 1914 generation expires?

  • How is it possible to maintain that Jesus was teaching that the 1914 generation would not pass away?

  • How old are babies born in 1914 today? (107)

  • If the generation Jesus spoke about would "surely" not pass away, you think He would be talking about a thriving number within that generation – don't you think?

  • Can you explain what Jesus meant by "this generation"? (hutos genaea) (overlapping)

  • Can you show where Matthew or any other gospel writer employs a similar meaning?

  12. Do you believe that less than 150,000 faithful Christians existed prior to the 20th century?

  (From 33 A.D. to 1900 A.D.)

  • What about the millions who were martyred for Christ during this time frame?

  • It is estimated that 2 million Christians were martyred in the first 3 centuries.

  • Were these mostly fake Christians? (must have been)

  • How can you judge when you don't know them?
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  20

  Sample Disassociation Letters

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what do you think of the following sample disassociation letter from 4jehovah.org ?.

  if you are looking to disassociate from jehovah’s witnesses, here is a sample letter you can modify for your use:.

  i have decided to disassociate myself from the ____________ congregation of jehovah’s witness.

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  Vanderhoven7

  @Ding: You are probably right about that.

  @Overrated: Short and to the point! And the elders probably read every word of yours.

  My question about the sample letter is this: If one informs the elders that they have disassociated themselves, why would the elders even bother to assemble a judicial committee? Wouldn't they just announce to the congregation that so-and-so no longer is a Jehovah's Witness?
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  20

  Sample Disassociation Letters

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  what do you think of the following sample disassociation letter from 4jehovah.org ?.

  if you are looking to disassociate from jehovah’s witnesses, here is a sample letter you can modify for your use:.

  i have decided to disassociate myself from the ____________ congregation of jehovah’s witness.

  1. 
  2. 
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  Vanderhoven7

  What do you think of the following sample disassociation letter from 4jehovah.org ?

  IF YOU ARE LOOKING TO DISASSOCIATE FROM JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES, HERE IS A SAMPLE LETTER YOU CAN MODIFY FOR YOUR USE:

  To

  I have decided to disassociate myself from the ____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witness. I have serious questions about foundational teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, which to this time still remain unanswered by any Jehovah’s Witness, including any elders, but I have no problem with the ____________ Congregation. My only disagreement is with certain actions, policies, teachings, and writings contained in publications produced, and oral teachings promulgated either individually or collectively by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. and the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Inc., and the International Bible Students Association.

  This is also to notify the _____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses that you, nor the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, including its over 100 other associated business corporations, have any authority over me whatsoever. This is also official notice to you, to discontinue any and all stalking activities against me and to never come to my home again, uninvited, especially when _____________ is not at home.

  If you decide to take any judicial action against me, there are certain things of which I must be notified, and which must be clarified, before I would agree to meet with any judicial committee. These items are as follows:

  1. I shall be notified in writing of the time, place, and purpose of any meetings with a judicial committee.
  2. I shall be notified in writing exactly on whose behalf the judicial committee was convened and is acting; the ____________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, or its legal corporations, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc., the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, the International Bible Students, or any agency not here named.
  3. If any other agency, other than the one for whom the judicial committee has informed me they are acting for, is consulted, reported to, or allowed to have any bearing on the outcome of the judicial process, I will consider the judicial committee as acting in their behalf.
  4. I shall be notified in writing of any accusations against me; the names of persons making such accusations, and the substance of any evidence against me.
  5. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the judicial process.
  6. I shall be given sufficient time between notification of any meetings with a judicial committee and the time of the actual meeting to prepare a response to any accusations.
  7. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the judicial committee, as an observer.
  8. During the meetings with the judicial committee, I, and or my observer, will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
  9. I will not recognize any action taken by the judicial committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
  10. If the judicial committee is acting only for the _________________ Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, it is enjoined from notifying any agency outside the congregation of their action. If the judicial committee or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I may take appropriate legal action.
  11. I may appeal any action taken by the judicial committee.
  12. Before I will meet with a judicial committee or an appeal committee, you must notify me in writing of the names of all of the members of the judicial committee or appeal committee, and who each one represents.
  13. There shall be no contact between the judicial committee and the appeal committee other than to inform them of the time and place of my meetings with them. If I determine that there is any contact, communication, or attempt on the part of any of the members of the judicial committee or anyone acting on their behalf to, in any way prejudice or sway the appeal committee, I will insist that a new appeal committee be formed.
  14. I shall be notified in writing of any and all of my rights and responsibilities involved in the appeal process.
  15. I shall be allowed to have one person of my choice present during all meetings between me and the appeal committee.

  1. During the meetings with the appeal committee, I, or my observer will take whatever notes we feel are necessary.
  2. I will not recognize any action taken by the appeal committee as valid unless it is communicated to me in writing, stating the exact nature and reason for the action.
  3. In this written communication the appeal committee must state exactly on whose behalf they are taking the action.
  4. Whoever the appeal committee has stated that it is acting for, it is enjoined from notifying any other agency. If the appeal committee, or anyone acting in their behalf notifies or reports to anyone outside the exact agency that they represent, I may take appropriate legal action.
  5. I understand that if I am disfellowshipped by the judicial committee and the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee, that I am, at that point, no longer considered by such committee or appeal committee to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I also know such agencies may consider making a public announcement of their action. Any statements, even implied, in such announcement may be considered liable, and subject to appropriate legal action. Any mention by speeches, or talks, or teachings to convince, coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any of Jehovah’s Witnesses to treat me differently from any other person that is not one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, to be a serious violation of my civil rights and I may initiate any legal action, civil or criminal that I deem appropriate. This includes any attempt to convince by speeches, talks, or teaching, to coerce by implied or actual threat of similar judicial action; or to encourage by private counsel or suggestion any present Jehovah’s Witnesses to shun or avoid me, cease or otherwise modify their doing business with me, or terminate or otherwise abrogate any lease, rental, mortgage, or any other legal agreement that I may presently have with them, I may consider such to be an infringement of free trade, and may initiate appropriate legal action.

  1. I consider any communication between the members of the judicial committee and myself and the appeal committee and myself to be ecclesiastically privileged. Any attempt to reveal the substance or tone of those communications to any other person or group will be considered by me to be a breach of that privilege, and may result in legal action. This includes any announcements beyond the fact of disfellowshipping; speeches, talks, or any other communication, written or oral, public or private.

  As a final warning, I will hold as personally and financially liable, any elder, body of elders, or individuals taking any action of any kind against me, including slander. Any action by any committee will be considered the action of all appointed elders in the congregation.

  The local elders need to be aware that the Watchtower Society is both unwilling and unable to shield the actions of elders from both criminal and civil prosecution. Instead, historically, the Watchtower Society uses extensive legal maneuvering to shield itself from any liability. They leave the elders “holding the bag.”

  Respectfully and Sincerely,
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  38

  What Do Today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses Really Think?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  when i was a witness i knew what my beliefs were and could defend my views, even if it really was wrong.

  i understood jw doctrines .

  i could define what the faithful and discreet slave was.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Magnum,

  Excellent post. Using it now on the Jesus Witness forum.
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  2

  Thinking of becoming a Witness- watch this.

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  if you or someone you know is considering watchtower religion, this would be an excellent video to recommend.

  .

  https://youtu.be/ppynyynb_ak.

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  Vanderhoven7

  Thanks Smiddy,

  So many people get involved with the Watchtower without knowing the consequences. Short, to the point videos like this should alert them at least to research further before making commitments.